On 7/23/2025 12:02 PM, Alan Grayson wrote:


On Sunday, July 20, 2025 at 10:21:14 PM UTC-6 Alan Grayson wrote:

    On Sunday, July 20, 2025 at 5:54:09 PM UTC-6 Alan Grayson wrote:

        On Tuesday, July 15, 2025 at 1:45:07 PM UTC-6 Brent Meeker wrote:



            On 7/14/2025 2:41 AM, Alan Grayson wrote:


            On Sunday, July 13, 2025 at 4:49:46 AM UTC-6 John Clark
            wrote:

                On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 1:31 AM Alan Grayson
                <[email protected]> wrote:

                    /> I had completely forgotten the Bell
                    experiments which allegedly show that the
                    Ignorance Interpretation of Superposition is
                    wrong, and I've never seen a clear demonstation
of that result./

                *I am now going to repeat a post I've sent to this
                list at least twice at your request, it's about what
                the Bell Inequality is and what the experimental fact
                that it is violated tells us about the nature of
                reality:*
                *=== *
                **
                *This is going to be a long post, you asked for it.
                First I'm gonna have to show that any theory (except
                for superdeterminism which is idiotic) that is
                deterministic, local and realistic cannot possibly
                explain the violation of Bell's Inequality that we
                see in our experiments, and then show why a theory
                like Many Worlds witch is deterministic and local but
                NOT realistic can.*


            *Thanks for this post. Before going further into this
            issue, please define your three terms: deterministic,
            local and realistic. I think realistic means a system has
            a unique value of an observable to be measured, before
            the measurement occurs, which IMO implies the Ignorance
            Interpretation of any superposition. AG*
            No.  A superposition is a definite state, it's just
            expressed as the sum of two different basis states.  For
            example a spin state of UP is also a superposition of LEFT
            and RIGHT states.  The LEFT and RIGHT states have coherent
            probability amplitudes such that they add to an UP state. 
            The ignorance interpretation applies to mixed states.

            Brent


        *Interesting point. TY. So in the case of mixed states, the
        Ignorance interpretation is not controversial. I suppose we
        can refer to those who think it is, as Ignorant? Succinctly,
        what are coherent probability amplitudes? AG *

Coherent means having fixed relative phase (remember they are complex numbers with a phase term exp(-iHt) )

    *Does this mean that when a superposition represents the state of
    a system before measurement, the system is in all component states
    of the superposition simultaneously before measurement? AG*

*
*
*IIUC, a superposition is written as a sum of basis states, each of which will be the result of a measurement. Since vectors in vector spaces written in this form can be legitimately interpreted as being in all basis states simultaneously, is this what QM affirms? TY, AG *
That's essentially correct.  One sometimes tricky point is that the basis states (just basis vectors) are not necessarily the same as the states you can measure.  Usually the two are chosen to align, but they don't have to; just like your compass measures magnetic north but your map is in terms of true north.

Brent

                *
                *
                *The hidden variable concept was Einstein's idea, he
                thought there was a local reason all events happened,
                even quantum mechanical events, but we just can't see
                what they are. It was a reasonable guess at the time
                but today experiments have shown that Einstein was
                wrong, to do that I'm gonna illustrate some of the
                details of Bell's inequality with an example.*


            *Do you understand how to derive Bell's Inequality, and
            exactly what, and why, its violation means? Wouldn't this
            be a better place to start your argument? AG *

                *
                When a photon of undetermined polarization hits a
                polarizing filter there is a 50% chance it will make
                it through. For many years physicists like Einstein
                who disliked the idea that God played dice with the
                universe figured there must be a hidden variable
                inside the photon that told it what to do. By "hidden
                variable" they meant something different about that
                particular photon that we just don't know about. They
                meant something equivalent to a look-up table inside
                the photon that for one reason or another we are
                unable to access but the photon can when it wants to
                know if it should go through a filter or be stopped
                by one. We now understand that is impossible. In 1964
                (but not published until 1967) John Bell showed that
                correlations that work by hidden variables must be
                less than or equal to a certain value, this is called
                Bell's inequality. In experiment it was found that
                some correlations are actually greater than that
                value. Quantum Mechanics can explain this, classical
                physics or even classical logic can not.

                Even if Quantum Mechanics is someday proven to be
                untrue Bell's argument is still valid, in fact his
                original paper had no Quantum Mechanics in it and can
                be derived with high school algebra; his point was
                that any successful theory about how the world works
                must explain why his inequality is violated, and
                today we know for a fact from experiments that it is
                indeed violated. Nature just refuses to be sensible
                and doesn't work the way you'd think it should.

                I have a black box, it has a red light and a blue
                light on it, it also has a rotary switch with 6
                connections at the 12,2,4,6,8 and 10 o'clock
                positions. The red and blue light blink in a manner
                that passes all known tests for being completely
                random, this is true regardless of what position the
                rotary switch is in. Such a box could be made and
                still be completely deterministic by just
                pre-computing 6 different random sequences and
                recording them as a look-up table in the box. Now the
                box would know which light to flash.

                I have another black box. When both boxes have the
                same setting on their rotary switch they both produce
                the same random sequence of light flashes. This would
                also be easy to reproduce in a classical physics
                world, just record the same 6 random sequences in
                both boxes.

                The set of boxes has another property, if the
                switches on the 2 boxes are set to opposite
                positions, 12 and 6 o'clock for example, there is a
                total negative correlation; when one flashes red the
                other box flashes blue and when one box flashes blue
                the other flashes red. This just makes it all the
                easier to make the boxes because now you only need to
                pre-calculate 3 random sequences, then just change
                every 1 to 0 and every 0 to 1 to get the other 3
                sequences and record all 6 in both boxes.

                The boxes have one more feature that makes things
                very interesting, if the rotary switch on a box is
                one notch different from the setting on the other box
                then the sequence of light flashes will on average be
                different 1 time in 4. How on Earth could I make the
                boxes behave like that? Well, I could change on
                average one entry in 4 of the 12 o'clock look-up
                table (hidden variable) sequence and make that the 2
                o'clock table. Then change 1 in 4 of the 2 o'clock
                and make that the 4 o'clock, and change 1 in 4 of the
                4 o'clock and make that the 6 o'clock. So now the
                light flashes on the box set at 2 o'clock is
                different from the box set at 12 o'clock on average
                by 1 flash in 4. The box set at 4 o'clock differs
                from the one set at 12 by 2 flashes in 4, and the one
                set at 6 differs from the one set at 12 by 3 flashes
                in 4.

                BUT I said before that boxes with opposite settings
                should have a 100% anti-correlation, the flashes on
                the box set at 12 o'clock should differ from the box
                set at 6 o'clock by 4 flashes in 4 NOT 3 flashes in
                4. Thus if the boxes work by hidden variables then
                when one is set to 12 o'clock and the other to 2
                there MUST be a 2/3 correlation, at 4 a 1/3
                correlation, and of course at 6 no correlation at
                all.  A correlation greater than 2/3, such as 3/4,
                for adjacent settings produces paradoxes, at least it
                would if you expected everything to work
                mechanistically because of some local hidden variable
                involved.

                Does this mean it's impossible to make two boxes that
                have those specifications? Nope, but it does mean
                hidden variables can not be involved and that means
                something very weird is going on. Actually it would
                be quite easy to make a couple of boxes that behave
                like that, it's just not easy to understand how that
                could be.

                Photons behave in just this spooky manner, so to make
                the boxes all you need it 4 things:

                1) A glorified light bulb, something that will make
                two photons of unspecified but identical
                polarizations moving in opposite directions so you
                can send one to each box. An excited calcium atom
                would do the trick, or you could turn a green photon
                into two identical lower energy red photons with a
                crystal of potassium dihydrogen phosphate.

                2) A light detector sensitive enough to observe just
                one photon. Incidentally the human eye is not quite
                good enough to do that but frogs can, for frogs when
                light gets very weak it must stop getting dimmer and
                appear to flash instead.

                3) A polarizing filter, we've had these for well over
                a century.

                4) Some gears and pulleys so that each time the
                rotary switch is advanced one position the filter is
                advanced by 30 degrees. This is because it's been
                known for many years that the amount of light
                polarized at 0 degrees that will make it through a
                polarizing filter set at X is [COS (x)]^2; and if X =
                30 DEGREES (π/6 radians) then the value is .75; if
                the light is so dim that only one photon is sent at a
                time then that translates to the probability that any
                individual photon will make it through the filter is 75%.

                The bottom line of all this is that there can not be
                something special about a specific photon, some
                internal difference, some hidden local variable that
                determines if it makes it through a filter or not.
                Thus if we ignore a superdeterministic conspiracy, as
                we should, then one of two things MUST be true:

                1) The universe is not realistic, that is, things do
                NOT exist in one and only one state both before and
                after they are observed. In the case of Many Worlds
                it means the very look up table as described in the
                above cannot be printed in indelible ink but, because
                Many Worlds assumes that Schrodinger's Equation means
                what it says, the look up table itself not only can
                but must exist in many different versions both before
                and after a measurement is made.
                *
                *
                2) The universe is non-local, that is, everything
                influences everything else and does so without regard
                for the distances involved or amount of time involved
                or even if the events happen in the past or the
                future; the future could influence the past.
                But because Many Worlds is non-realistic, and thus
                doesn't have a static lookup table, it has no need to
                resort to any of these non-local influences to
                explain experimental results.*
                *
                *
                *Einstein liked non-locality even less than
                nondeterminism, I'm not sure how he'd feel about
                non-realistic theories like Many Worlds, the idea
                wasn't discovered until about 10 years after his death.*
                *
                *
                *John K Clark    See what's on my new list at
                Extropolis <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>*


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