The #1 problem with most CO2 assessments of EV emissions is they take the Grid mix (say 65% coal and Natural gas, etc) and apply that to the EV while surveys show that 85% of EV buyers also *BUY* 100% clean electricity either from their own solar panels, or by signing up for Wind from their utility.
They ignore the demographics of who buys EVs! Saying that an EV runs on 65% fossil fuels is like saying I have an 18% chance of dying from lung cancer because 18% of Americans smoke. I don’t! ... and I don’t drive my EV on dirty electricity either. Even taking the real grid mix of say 65% dirty, there are other factors. First the EV consumes 1/3d of the energy as a gas car for the same performance. Second lets say 1/2 of EV drivers actually buy clean energy. Multiply all these factors, 1/3rd x 1/2 x 65% and you get about 10% as the AVERAGE CO2 emissions compared to a gas car. Use this to push back anytime you hear someone comparing EV's, the grid mix and gas cars. Bob Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html -----Original Message----- From: EV <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 10:52 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Cc: Peri Hartman <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] (offt) h2 won’t overtake EVs> hampered by science So glad to see an article that clearly blasts the myth of fuel cells. It's about time that people wake up and realize that you don't capture hydrogen by swishing around large sacks on top of mountains. On the other hand, to be more complete, I think the article (or some article) should also talk about the amortized effects of manufacturing both kinds of systems. I'm pretty sure that building a large battery has a larger CO2 effect, not to mention other environment effects, than building a fuel cell. I believe batteries still come out substantially ahead, and more so in the future as the technology improves, but numbers are the best way to settle that. I was hoping to find out more from Canadian Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association on how they claim EVs have an order magnitude higher CO2 footprint. I clicked the link, but it only presented a publicity flyer with the same statement in it and no further references or information. I did not try searching independently. Bruce: I see this topic excited you: you transcribed the whole article instead of just a brief :) Thanks ! Peri ------ Original Message ------ From: "evln via EV" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: "evln" <[email protected]> Sent: 03-Jun-20 8:32:03 PM Subject: [EVDL] (offt) h2 won’t overtake EVs> hampered by science > > >https://thedriven.io/2020/06/04/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-ve >hicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-laws-of-science/ >Hydrogen cars won’t overtake electric vehicles because they’re hampered >by laws of science June 4, 2020 Tom Baxter > >[images >https://images.theconversation.com/files/339188/original/file-20200602- >133910-1dlknyt.png > energy vector transition > >https://images.theconversation.com/files/339187/original/file-20200602- >133924-1qb51y5.png >Energy efficiency in electric vehicles >] > >Hydrogen has long been touted as the future for passenger cars. The >hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV), which simply runs on >pressurised hydrogen from a fuelling station, produces zero carbon >emissions from its exhaust. > >It [fcv] can be filled as quickly as a fossil-fuel equivalent and >offers a similar driving distance to petrol [ice]. It has some >heavyweight backing, with Toyota for instance launching the >second-generation Mirai [ >http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-Recall- >all-Mirai-fcvs-h2-fcv-tech-Comes-Under-Fire-tp4685832p4695208.html >] later in 2020. > >The Canadian Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association recently produced a >report extolling hydrogen vehicles. Among other points, it said that >the carbon footprint is an order of magnitude better than electric >vehicles: 2.7g of carbon dioxide per kilometre compared to 20.9g. > >All the same, I think hydrogen fuel cells are a flawed concept. I do >think hydrogen will play a significant role in achieving net zero >carbon emissions by replacing natural gas [methane, CH4] in industrial and >domestic heating. >But I struggle to see how hydrogen can compete with [battery] electric >vehicles, and this view has been reinforced by two recent pronouncements. > >A report by BloombergNEF concluded [ >https://data.bloomberglp.com/professional/sites/24/BNEF-Hydrogen-Econom >y-Outlook-Key-Messages-30-Mar-2020.pdf >]: > > The bulk of the car, bus and light-truck market looks set to adopt >(battery electric technology), which are a cheaper solution than fuel >cells. > >Volkswagen [ >https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/stories/battery-or-fuel-cell-tha >t-is-the-question-5868 ], meanwhile, made a statement comparing the >energy efficiency of the technologies. “The conclusion is clear” said >the company. “In the case of the passenger car, everything speaks in >favour of the battery and practically nothing speaks in favour of >hydrogen.” > >Hydrogen’s efficiency problem >The reason why hydrogen is inefficient is because the energy must move >from wire to gas to wire in order to power a car. This is sometimes >called the energy vector transition. > >Let’s take 100 watts of electricity produced by a renewable source such >as a wind turbine. To power an FCEV, that energy has to be converted >into hydrogen, possibly by passing it through water (the electrolysis [ >https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zpxn82p/revision/1 >] process). This is around 75% energy-efficient, so around one-quarter >of the electricity is automatically lost. > >The hydrogen produced has to be [cleaned/filtered,] compressed, chilled >and transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% >efficient. >Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs converted into electricity, >which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to >move the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together [ >https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/energy-storage-2019 >], only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are >used [/available >https://www.californiahydrogen.org/wp-content/uploads/files/doe_fuelcel >l_factsheet.pdf >]. > >With electric vehicles, the energy runs on wires all the way from the >source to the car. The same 100 watts of power from the same turbine >loses about 5% of efficiency in this journey through the grid (in the >case of hydrogen, I’m assuming the conversion takes place onsite at the >wind farm). > >You lose a further 10% of energy from charging and discharging the >lithium-ion battery, plus another 5% from using the electricity to make >the vehicle move. So you are down to 80 watts – as shown in the figure >opposite. >Energy efficiency in electric vehicles. > >In other words, the hydrogen fuel cell requires double the amount of >energy. >To quote BMW [ >https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/how-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-work.html >]: “The overall efficiency in the power-to-vehicle-drive energy chain >is therefore only half the level of (an electric vehicle).” > >Swap shops ... >Finally a word on the claims on carbon emissions from that Canadian >Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association report I mentioned earlier. I >checked the source [ >https://juser.fz-juelich.de/record/842477/files/Energie_Umwelt_408_NEU. >pdf ] of the statistics, which revealed they were comparing hydrogen >made from purely renwewable electricity with electric vehicles powered >by electricity from fossil fuels. > >If both were charged using renewable electricity, the carbon footprint >would be similar. The original report was funded by industry consortium >H2 Mobility, so it’s a good example of the need to be careful with >information in this area. >[© thedriven.io] >... >https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicl >es-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899 > > >[dated] >http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Honda-eu-P >rez-sez-f-c-v-diesel-ice-kaput-abandoned-EV-hev-focused-now-tp4695803.h >tml Honda.eu Prez sez: fcv &diesel-ice kaput, abandoned> EV &hev >focused now Nov 28, 2019 > >http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Compared-t >o-EVs-Toyota-Honda-fcvs-are-not-practical-tp4690395.html >Compared to EVs> Toyota, Honda fcvs are not practical Toyota Mirai, >Honda FCV Are Impractical, Despite Their Advantage Jun 22, 2018 > >http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-Toyota- >admits-Elon-Musk-is-right-that-fcvs-are-incredibly-dumb-tp4688406.html >OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb >Oct 29, 2017 > >http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-fcv-del >iveries-halted-2few-pumps-need-appt4-slow-1-2-fill-150mi-more-tp4679820 >.html OT fcv deliveries halted> 2few pumps, need appt4 >slow-1/2-fill(150mi), +more Jan 16, 2016 ... Toyota Tells Dealers: Stop >Mirai sales ... > > >+ >https://www.thedrive.com/tech/33408/why-we-still-cant-deliver-on-the-pr >omise-of-hydrogen-cars Why We Still Can't Deliver on the Promise of >Hydrogen Cars May 11, 2020 2020 is a big year for battery EVs, but >there are many reasons hydrogen fuel cells will never live up to their >promise ... For decades, hydrogen was presumed to be “the fuel of the >future,” ... That's not how it’s played out ... >https://the-drive-3.imgix.net/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carstyling.ru%2Fresource >s%2Fconcept%2Flarge%2F1991_Mazda_HR-X_02.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&ixl >ib=js-1.4.1&s=f4f69b23528a8170096a953cc151578b > > > > >For EVLN EV-newswire posts view: >http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >https://mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html > > >{brucedp.neocities.org} > >-- >Sent from: >http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/ >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html >INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
