I agree and was involved with the early development of emission standards with with Don Heirman. But still, other areas of engineering are much more accurate/have very low uncertainty than EMC.
It is sad that most everyone I knew from the early days of EMC are gone now. Many of them, Heirman and Ott, for example, were friends. I hope to continue to help engineers in the wider field of engineering and physics, including EMC for another 25-30 years. By the way, another of my interests is medicine, which I have studied on my own for 50 years now and have successfully slowed the aging process and successfully treated my spouse’s ovarian cancer (after the surgery to remove two very large tumors) without an oncologist. Just another part of science as EMC is. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected] Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Brent DeWitt <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2024 5:57:46 PM To: doug emcesd.com <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] technical musings Doug, Respectfully, I would not agree. I'm not sure what "other areas of engineering" you're referring to. 🙂 First, if we are discussing commercial emissions standards, they are ancient and date back to the days when Apple 2 PCs were interfering with "rabbit ear" TV reception (1979) when Part 47 was drafted. The levels were largely drawn from the VDE 0871 standard. I doubt anyone with knowledge of the methodology has suggested that the overall process is deterministic. The question of measurement uncertainty was championed by Don Heirman for years and continues to be debated. Regulations and standards have done a very good, if somewhat painful, job of quantifying the uncertainty of the measurement process. The most competent and well executed test laboratory cannot fully control a customer's EUT or even have total control over the configuration. That is an advantage for a manufacturer having their own in-house test facility. All that said, I feel that the "state of EMC testing" has evolved to produce very respectable results, given the real world constraints. Best to all and 73 Jim! Brent DeWitt, AB1LF IEEE EMC Society Senior Life Member Milford, MA On 10/8/2024 7:07 PM, doug emcesd.com wrote: Seems like the state of EMC testing is not good compared to other areas of engineering! Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Website: http://dsmith.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dsmith.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=jCRzTaNQorPZq38xZ6lIGQ&m=PO8Xq-rf40J5GT-pnX65HnCPIlbJsadMVgQOBFB_G2_quXYk7CiKX5YgIgmvdwb9&s=kpNzJt0YWej3BUidKRv3bPPdHy9hltqIOUPrcw765Vg&e=> ________________________________ From: Jim Bacher, WB8VSU <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2024 8:50:49 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] technical musings Back in the 1980s I had a variation in system measurements between labs. Management decided the lab I used wasn't any good. In the process of trying to convince management variations were normal, I came to the conclusion that measuring systems at different labs would likely have a +5 to -7 dB variations. None of our test equipment is perfectly flat. No one calibrates every Hz to account for those imperfections. The frequency being measured is typically not on any of the calibrated frequencies. For testing a system, equipment and cable variations can impact their emmisions significantly. I have seen over 20 dB of variation due to the variations. How much effort was made to peak signals? Then is the test equipment measurement operator an avid Ham DXer (chases weak signals to talk to far away stations)? Reason is a Ham will likely do a more accurate peaking of rotation and height of the search antennas. I have had one government lab fail to compensate for a preamp when reporting levels and said the product failed. I had the agent pull it back for a few days, then take it back and it passed with no changes. So some errors can be to using the wrong calibration factors when calculating the levels. Jim Bacher, WB8VSU [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> or [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> JBRC Consulting LLC Product EMC & Regulatory Consultant https://www.trc.guru/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__trc.guru_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=c6nhOLO-gj8oBRPLqcRVVpB0b-ty2YpxMuPsVxNFhzVvK9nhFk_fDyBnXHNW3JKZ&s=g1_EVtpoDllNYD7LkeKyb79aTJlbmsmq8mEaNwLSZ4I&e=> email:[email protected]<mailto:email:[email protected]> IEEE Life Senior Member On October 8, 2024 11:14:28 AM David Schaefer <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> wrote: Harry Hodes gave a presentation at the C63 meetings last week on proficiency testing. He runs the ACIL PT program, and the data he shared showed a ton of variance. Many labs were in I think +/-3-4 dB range, but there were outliers – the worst cases being one lab reading 30-40 dB high, another 30-40 dB low. If I recall correctly for one PT program 95 labs participated and around 10 were outside the expected tolerance. Doing a check of the measurement system prior to testing is critical. A comb gen scan takes only a few minutes but should catch these egregious errors. [cid:[email protected]] David Schaefer Technical Manager Element Materials Technology 9349 W Broadway Ave Brooklyn Park , MN 55445 , United States O +1 612 638 5136<tel:+1%20612%20638%205136> ext. 10461 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> 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From: doug emcesd.com <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 7, 2024 6:08 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [PSES] technical musings CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact the TOC if you are in any doubt about this email. I have seen differences of 9 dB on the same measurement on an EUT and comb generator by different accredited labs! Doug [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_HuR3Ky2TF_XhFHyxnYRmiq7nHQldnMsPNYFaLG6kb5T4y8MeCe-BDC_BscJtSFgszSSjssihHS-pjM3-jwNP8S0CwE-gN8fsRsPkojiAlmpBwb20vIVizS-siCUywW_jqrefbVr] ________________________________ This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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