Cortland, Thanx for sharing your story. All of us have had similar
experiences, passing it on is the fun part when folks are willing to learn.
Passing it on is frustrating when folks don’t want to learn, only to argue.
On the product safety side I learned early on to not argue but
invoke a simple test and watch the designer’s eyes be opened in amazement when
his superior design wouldn’t pass a test that he had already agreed seemed
reasonable. (How to make friends and influence people.)
Of course, product safety seemed better organized and reasonable :>) .
EMC stuff was always bat’s wings and dragon’s teeth implemented with baling
wire and conductive tape over al foil (and the ever present box of assorted
filters).
The technology has come a long way; fortunately, not all of the engineers have
so there exists room for experience to handhold and lead the uninitiated along
the path of learning. As PT Barnum claimed: A fool is born every minute; what
a great opportunity exists.
It’s been a great ride. I still encourage young folks to find what they really
like to do and then find someone dumb enough to pay them to do it. I have
enjoyed my more than 60 yr professional engineering career that way.
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 1067
Albany, ORe 97321-0413
503/452-1201
IEEE Life Fellow
IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
<http://www.researchgate.net/Peter%20Perkins> www.researchgate.net search my
name
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
Entropy ain’t what it used to be
From: Cortland Richmond <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 10:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass
first time?
I started in EMC on retiring from the Army in 1983, at Wang Labs, where my 15
years in avionics maintenance and repair, a few teaching at its school in
Georgia, plus a Secret clearance to do TEMPEST testing, meant all I needed
was a three-letter course given by three-letter instructors.
EMC compliance and vulnerability is very basic, and yet, many of the degreed
engineers I worked with sometimes had me teaching EMC "lunch and learns", or
arguing for fixes from shield terminations to chassis contact points to avoid
just as expensive (and less reliable) slip-on copper fingers. GE Aviation
recruited me ("Smith Aerospace" in Michigan just then) and it was often the
basics that designers adn engineers often misunderstood or forgot. "Put the
electrons back before they scream for their mothers!"
And every employer had files my first manager at Smiths/GE called "files
written down." High School physics, or so I thought.
I retried to a few years working on contracts, and I doubt I'll be working
again at 77 -- but it was FUN.
Ad astra per Asperger -- discovered at 67.
Cortland
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Hulbert
Sent: May 26, 2021 7:58 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass
first time?
I first started in the EMC, Product Safety, and standards compliance aspect of
engineering about 35 years ago. At that time they were saying all the same
things we are saying today: Must be considered up front in designs. Must be
included in engineering education at the college/university level. Management
needs to commit to compliance. I would also add that EMC was “black magic” (do
people still say that?). Apparently we still have a long way to go. I wonder
if they will still be saying these things 35 years from now.
Jim Hulbert
From: John E Allen <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 5:59 PM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
Like a “lot” of people here, I never had any formal education in either safety
or EMC compliance – I just had to learn “on the job” about “what worked and
what didn’t”, and often in very challenging situations.
(OTOH, I was never the “sharpest tool in the toolbox” in engineering parlance
– which was a “problem” when engaging with local management which, frankly,
mainly “didn’t to know” ☹, )
Therefore safety, standards compliance and EMC standards compliance REALLY MUST
be an integral component of engineering education – and ALSO for company
management - forward from where we are “now”.
John E Allen
W. London, UK.
From: Dennis Ward <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Sent: 25 May 2021 21:09
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
Having been in the EMC business now for going on 40+years, I concur with what
Pete is saying. The truth of the matter is, this field of study is sadly under
taught and is still more hands on and learning by trial and error for the most
part. Yes, there are a lot of good ‘classes’ you can take, but the fact
remains, this is more than not an OJT field.
As to manufacturers designing at the limit. This is also true, and also
problematic as it means far too many products still fail first time out.
I don’t know if I would necessarily agree with the percentages reported, but it
is getting a better.
My last 20+ years has been working in the regulatory approvals end and I can
say that failure to comply with rules and standards is still a big issue with
manufacturers.
Thanks
Dennis Ward
Senior Reviewing Engineer
PCTEST Engineering Laboratory, LLC.
7185 Oakland Mills Road
Columbia, MD 21045
1 410 290 6652)
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> | www.pctest.com |
www.element.com
This communication and any attachment contain information from PCTEST
Engineering Laboratory, LLC. and is intended for the exclusive use of the
recipient(s) named above.
From: Pete Perkins <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 12:39 PM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO
NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt
about this email.
James,
You don’t have to denigrate yourself as not being a guru. You have plenty of
experience in this as shown by your comments. Sharing this is quite valuable
to the others on this thread.
All of us started out as ignorant of any of these requirements
because they are not taught in formal college level courses; a few exceptions
seem to exist.
Some folks might get specialized training – if they work for a
gov’t agency or a safety test organization; else it’s all OJT.
I don’t see that changing any time soon; the academic folks have
their interests which continue to push mathematical analysis techniques (and
that will continue). More and more technical folks will get higher degrees
[you know what BS is, MS is More of the Same and PhD is Piled higher and Deeper
:>) ], hardly any of which is of interest at our daily working level.
Manufacturers will continue to steal trained folks from test labs; probably not
too bad a deal especially if the folks move back and forth to spread what
they’ve learned going each way.
Finally, the standards keep getting more complex (PhD effect)
and interrelated as issues are delved into more deeply; plus manufacturers are
getting better trained to design near the limit without as much margin so the
compliance is close to falling off of the edge of the world at any moment.
So keep at what you are doing as long as you enjoy it; then get
out gracefully – keeping your reputation intact to maintain a legacy as you go.
Enough of Phil 101 today.
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 1067
Albany, ORe 97321-0413
503/452-1201
IEEE Life Fellow
IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
www.researchgate.net search my name
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
Entropy ain’t what it used to be
From: James Pawson (U3C) <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 1:19 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
(replying even though I’m not a guru)
Hi Charles, hope all is well with you
Speaking from my own experience. Over the last four years of running a
consultancy, pre-compliance and low cost test EMC laboratory I would (very
roughly) estimate that around:
* 50% of products pass their desired radiated emissions limits without
any modification
* 33% or less pass all of the applicable tests first time without
modification
The major caveats and notes here are that
* These figures are for customers products where the EMC performance is
not known before testing. We do a lot of work helping people solve existing EMC
problems but we are not counting this in these figures.
* Most of my customers are smaller businesses that can’t afford to employ
an engineer to just look after compliance. That job role is either split
amongst several people or the engineer in question has to look after quality,
manufacturing, sustaining, thermal, system, and everything else. Speaking as
someone who has designed many products and systems in the past, trying to
design for functionality whilst simultaneously considering best EMC performance
is HARD. I use the metaphor of
* The products that pass first time generally fall into one of three
categories
* Products that we have design reviewed before the design was finalised
* Retests of products that have already been through our lab once
* Products that are very simple in nature
* Our hit-rate at being able to solve our customers problems is around
90-95%
* The “ones that got away” where we were unable to help deliver a
compliant include
* No action taken: Products where it was deemed by the manufacturer not
economically feasible to modify the product (e.g. product going end of life)
* No further communications from the manufacturer so we don’t get to find
out what happened next (no news is good news, right?)
I would echo the sentiments of others on this thread regarding the need to
design in compliance from the start.
One of the problems with the field of compliance is that it is too often
“learned through experience in industry” and not explicitly taught. When it is
taught at academic level it is often a surface treatment with a theoretical
look at shielding or maybe crosstalk with no other practical context or
background.
The split between industry and academia is one of the possible causes. Yes,
there are exceptions to this but they primarily remain exceptions. I had
discussions with a local university about some guest lectures on compliance and
the theme of the response was “it doesn’t really fit into any of our modules”
and “we can’t have it as an optional lecture as none of the students will
attend”.
The number of times I hear “oh, thanks for that. No one has every explained it
that clearly before” is worrying!
All the best
James
James Pawson
The EMC Problem Solver
Unit 3 Compliance Ltd
EMC : Environmental : Safety : CE + UKCA : Consultancy
www.unit3compliance.co.uk | +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957
2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL
Registered in England and Wales # 10574298
From: Grasso, Charles [Outlook] <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Sent: 24 May 2021 15:47
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [PSES] What percentage of products pass first time?
Hello EMC gurus!
Calling all labs - In your experience how many products pass the Unintentional
Emissions
test first time?
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
_____
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
This message was sent from outside the company. Please do not click links or
open attachments unless you recognize the source of this email and know the
content is safe.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
This email message may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
information. It is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). If
you have received it in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply
email and then delete this message. No one other than the intended recipient
may disclose, copy, distribute or use the information contained in this message.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected]>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected]>
Mike Cantwell <[email protected]>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: <[email protected]>
David Heald: <[email protected]>
