Hi Ecologers,
Yikes, I felt a bit down after reading this thread! I usually don’t respond to these but wanted to tell the OP and other students/recent grads in their position to not give up, even though yes, it sometimes is extremely difficult to get that long sought after full time paid job with benefits. I want to start out by saying I do not have a job in tropical biology or conservation. But as someone who’s wanted to work in marine science/biology their whole life, I completely understand the difficulty of trying to climb the ladder, go to school, gain experience, and navigate through endless job applications and interviews. While I don’t think it’s the magic answer to getting a job, I don’t think discouraging young students from going to graduate school is the way to go, either. Going to grad school for a Master’s/Ph.D does *not* guarantee you a job on the other end. However, for me it helped me enormously in getting volunteer research experience and networking with scientists in the field that I would have never met or worked with had I not pursued a Master’s degree. I would caution prospective students and say that it’s probably only wise to go if you can secure funding through a TA/RA- I wouldn’t take out any more loans past undergraduate to do it. But, if given a good opportunity and a student has found scholarships or assistantships to cover the cost, and they’re willing to really work at finding mentors and connect with other scientists in the field, it’s my opinion that graduate school can be a good career catalyst. That being said, you can do all that, graduate, and struggle to find a paying job at the other end. I’ve been there. My advice to that end is to persevere in applications and to be willing to move to take positions. Again, I have never pursued a career in tropical biology or conservation, so for many it’s probably not a financial reality to keep moving and take jobs all over the world where they happen to become available. But, it’s been my experience in marine science that being open to relocation and taking multiple technician/research assistant type jobs is just the way to secure the paid experience on your resume that might finally lead you to getting the full time Biologist level position or higher. Also, I don’t advocate for taking an unpaid internship that you have to pay a fee for AND pay to get yourself there plus pay for your housing, etc etc. Who in the world can afford that? I understand the financial constraints and that many of these organizations can’t afford to pay students, but from the young scientists’ perspective it’s totally unreasonable. You need to get experience, yes, but you also need to eat and support yourself. I believe it was the OP who asked how many jobs does one have to take before “giving up” and going to work to mitigate wetlands or counting dead bats on a wind farm. To that I ask, why do you call that “giving up”? You’re getting paid because you got that degree, right? It may not be glamorous, and it actually may be very difficult at times. It also might totally suck. My advice would be to not consider this “giving up” and using the opportunity as a way to collect a paycheck, get all the experience you can on a resume (useful skills like communicating with landowners or navigating wetland permits maybe!), and bust your tail so that others can see how hard you work. If it’s not worth it, you don’t have to stay forever. Move onto the next opening that comes your way. But taking opportunities that present themselves to you and working really hard at them has, in my experience, has actually paid off. I just wanted to put some encouragement out there and share a little of what I’ve learned. You really do have to persevere to work in a conservation/ecology related field. Tenacity is everything! Best of luck. On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 3:29 PM, SPENCER SCHUBERT <sschu...@odu.edu> wrote: > Hello Ecolog-ers > > This email thread seemed relevant to my own experiences and after skimming > through to see some depressing responses sprinkled with some overly > dramatic pessimism and discouragement, I thought I would give my own take > on this. > > I'm a 4th year PhD student working on a research/conservation project in > tropical forest/farmland ecosystems in the Dominican Republic. I have been > in and out of Latin America for field work on different projects since 2012 > when I was just an undergraduate. Since I was about 16 years old, I had > myself convinced that I would make my career as a scientist working in > conservation of tropical ecosystems and their flora/fauna. I did a > Bio/Spanish double major at my college. So, I was not only focused on > ecology, but also Latin American culture and I came out already having > studied and practiced Spanish language for about 8 years. Out of college, > I applied for LOTS of jobs, not just tropical stuff. Over 90% of those > applications, even to volunteer stuff, ended in rejection. I ended up > doing two volunteer positions, each for 3-6 months. Those gigs did not > charge a fee, you pretty much just had to get yourself there and then most > things were covered. I didn't have too much college debt, and I had saved > up enough money from my summer jobs to make this happen. Soon after, I got > a paid job in the tropics doing forest censuses. It wasn't much, but it > covered airfare and a modest stipend. I did a couple of jobs in the US too > that paid before starting my program. > > Currently, I have fairly solid grant funding for my research project, not > from my advisor nor hardly from my university, but as a result of having, > myself, developed and submitted over 30 grant proposals to > organizations/agencies of all kinds. Through these funds and plenty of > collaboration with local partners, I have been able to keep some sort of > field work and data collection going for over 24 months mostly > uninterrupted. Some of these grants have even made it possible for me to > hire/contract field assistants. I've had 3 Dominican techs and 5 assistants > from outside the country (mostly Americans). A lot of grants available to > graduate students explicitly prohibit you using those funds on personnel... > often it's limited to equipment expenses, lab expenses, transportation, or > other consumables. Some of my pools of grant money have been fairly > flexible, in that I have been able to use them to support my field crews. > One of my main funders is oriented toward conservation research in > developing countries, and they are *thrilled* to see that money spent on > developing young homegrown (in this case Dominican) professionals to the > extent to where I have been able to offer all expenses covered and > compensation for these people. This is not the case for Americans, but I > have been able to justify limited funding to cover almost all basic costs > for American volunteers since qualified, serious candidates who are up for > intensive field seasons are difficult to come by in this region. > Additionally, there have been times where I simply could not work within my > budget if I had two paid people instead of one paid and one volunteer. > > From my perspective on people from relatively prosperous countries trying > to do work in developing countries -- a perspective limited to working with > entry-level ecologists (e.g. college undergrads or recent grads) interested > in getting their feet wet in tropical ecology -- paying these people is > difficult to justify. Sure, outside institutions and researchers like > myself can (hopefully) do great work and make a real difference in advance > the conservation/research agenda. But the reality is the best way to > sustained progress is when things grow within local communities. > Unfortunately, that growth is being set back in many cases by political and > economic priorities that don't align with that growth. So, international > collaboration is crucial. Having been in the position of a volunteer, even > fluent in the local language and having a fairly strong background in > science outdoors, I recognize that none of my previous education and > training really mattered that much. I was not necessarily a > skilled/essential asset on any field crew in the beginning. At the entry > level, I firmly believe, that you can train just about anyone with good > attention to detail and work ethic to be a good field ecologist. It does > not make sense to spend time, effort, and resources training such a person > when the world would be much better off training local people... with which > you have less unnecessary expenditures for relocating people and a greater > possibility that they will continue on that path. Furthermore, there > definitely is a healthy chunk of applicants out there that are not really > all that committed to the the work, but rather are just looking for a cool > experience or maybe one that will separate them from others in future job > applications. You could argue, they damage the image of people who really > are brimming with passion. Having said all that... I believe creating a > business model (even a non-profit operation) around charging volunteers > fees and whatnot is just plain nonsense to me. If the work is important > enough, you should be able to find at least *some* money for it. And if > you can't find enough to sustain that project, other avenues need to be > explored. That is... reducing costs or scale of the work, finding > collaborators who can help support you, or getting yourself a different > occupation. The ability and willingness to write grant proposals cannot be > understated. Maybe someone out there could provide a rational defense for > the volunteer fees thing, but I just can't see it. > > I don't necessarily expect that when my PhD is done that I'll get a paid > job working in the tropics. My experience has been that when the path is > not clear to where you want to get to, you have to cut one for yourself. I > can remain hopeful that my work ethic, track record, and growing expertise > will afford me the opportunity to stay involved and develop other projects > in the future. If I'm really productive and with enough luck, maybe some > day I could get a faculty position where I could command a more powerful > platform from which to bring in funding for graduate students or local > NGO's. That's obviously a very narrow trajectory, but it's a start. I'm > convince there are lots of other ways keep at it, it's just a matter of > identifying them. I have gotten as far as I have by doing my best to > network and cast a wide net with the work that I want to do and the > projects I want to develop. Based on my limited experience, I think a > career in ecology/conservation is all about opportunism. Find out what > you're good at, leverage it, figure out how to spot opportunities, and be > prepared to make sacrifices to get there if it's what you really want. In > any case, this line of work is definitely extremely demanding and not very > financially prosperous. Starting out getting paid nothing or next to > nothing is just the way it is apparently. > > That's my piece. Hope it is worth something to someone. > > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 10:32 PM, Jason Hernandez < > jason.hernande...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Now that the academic year has ended, the big wave of seasonal field jobs >> has abated, as have the inevitable posts by graduating students hoping to >> find one. And I have to admit, I have gotten a little jaded. I put myself >> in the shoes of one of those young people... >> >> ...Tropical rainforests have had a lot of exposure for many years now, it >> is no surprise when a young person is inspired to pursue a career in >> conservation, with hopes of making a difference in the tropics. But as you >> search for opportunities, what do you find? Every opportunity in a tropical >> environment is a volunteer position or an unpaid internship. Some cover >> your expenses; some expect you to cover your own airfare; some even charge >> you a fee. But, you rationalize, it's an investment in your future; you >> will gain a new skill set and valuable experience for your resume, make >> contacts in the conservation world for your network.. So you take the >> unpaid job. You have a wonderful experience, you learn a lot. But then you >> begin to notice that every season, it is the same. Every position in the >> tropics is unpaid. If you were an organization with limited resources, why >> would you pay someone when there is a steady stream of idealistic young >> people eager to work for free? As the young person, how many of these >> unpaid jobs can you afford before you have to give up and go mitigate >> wetlands for a strip mall developer, or count dead bats on a wind farm? >> >> It can't possibly be that way for everyone. I am interested in the >> stories of young people who succeeded in pursuing this dream sustainably. >> How did you make it happen? >> >> Jason Hernandez >> > > > > -- > Spencer C. Schubert > Ph.D. Student > Department of Biological Sciences > Old Dominion University > Norfolk, VA 23529-0266 > Cell #: 1-815-222-9551 (USA) > Cell #: 1-829-808-1269 (República Dominicana) > >
