[ECOLOG-L] Fwd: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity

Mon, 01 Oct 2012 05:25:05 -0700 

Hi, Ted

        Your  work is interesting and provide a kind of synthesis on functional
aspects of ecosystems. I think that we can all agree on your vision of
ecosystem for themselves and not for human interests. Nonetheless, you
have created another classification as our human mind need it. But, what
about things that would not fall into you categorization of Nature ? And
for sure, one day, somebody will find something outside this
classification. In this case, should we create another category ? I think
that any strict categorization inevitably leads to a need of a
multiplication fo categories. This is simply because Nature isn't cut into
strict part. Our study of biodiversity should have teach this point to
anybody. Even the very well known concept of species is not so clear. For
example, some fish "species" can produce some fertile hybrids (e.g.
roach-bream). Though, if these individuals from different species can
produce fertile descendant they are from the same species, aren't they ?.

        So, I do not agree on the fact that we wouldn't need of fuzzy set
mathematics. Clearly, they don't muddy our perception of functional
diversity or even ecosystem functioning. We must understand that our mind
is limited in its capacity to perceive complex mechanisms and particularly
in very complex systems such as ecosystems. So, our challenge is to fit
our limited perceptions to the complexity of systems. I think that fuzzy
mathematics can help us to achieve this part of the problem. Fuzzy
mathematics can furnish flexible classifications for example. Hence, we
could better match our need to classify things and the continuity of
Nature's processes. Once we will have some means to fit our perceptions
and real mechanisms in action we will be able to design some practical
measures to evaluate ecosystems functions and functioning more precisely.
This could seem counterintuitive to have more precise things when we would
use fuzzy methods but this is a reality (for example, many methods in
medical imaging are using fuzzy mathematics and statistics to give very
precise images of human body).
        Maybe, we could say that we don't need to measure things and ecosystems
processes would be no exception. But, I think that quantification is a
second need (after classification) for human being. And this not only
encompass a philosophical thought but also a very practical one. Indeed,
we can still go walking in a forest evaluating roughly what is happening
and be satisfied with this point of view. But, our understanding of
ecosystems functioning is not just a hobby. This have some important
consequences on our possibilities to match human activities and Nature's
preservation. Having good measures of ecosystem functioning would allow us
to know what are the crucial leverages in ecosystems we can rely on to
enhance ecosystems quality. This is particularly true in human-impacted
systems.


Nicolas

Le Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:28:00 +0200, Ted Mosquin <[email protected]> a
écrit:


Hello all,
Here is the way I understand the meaning of 'functional diversity'. No endless statistics or fuzzy math required to muddy the explanation even more. The essential question is: what do organisms (individually and collectively) actually do within their ecosystems to enable the world to have become the way it is? Let me count the ways.......(Table 3 in the URL below). We humans find ourselves living in a great big never-ending self organizing buzz out there no matter where one goes on this planet. The buzz has been going on since the beginning of time. One has to try to bear in mind that we are processes, that is we are verbs and not nouns (except in micro-moments in time). This is an alternative to fuzzy math and stats -- just go out there, take a deep breath and be the participant that you are. 

http://www.ecospherics.net/pages/MosqEcoFun5.html

Ted Mosquin


On 9/29/2012 9:30 AM, Nicolas PERU wrote:
I'm also a proponent of the application of fuzzy thinking and fuzzy set mathematics to ecology. Clearly, binary thinking should be avoided in ecology because very little (none ?) ecosytems parts obey black/white rules like human beings like to apply on anything. Classifications are a necessity for human being but not for natural elements. I think that if we really want to evaluate ecosystem functioning we must recognize and take into account in our mathematical measures the fuzziness of Nature. Binary categorization (like some biological traits) should be applied at the end of our calculus processes. 

Nicolas
Le Sat, 29 Sep 2012 06:55:58 +0200, Wayne Tyson <[email protected]> a écrit:
I tend to be even fuzzier-- Fuzzy Philosophy: A Foundation for Interneted Ecology? This became my retirement talk at the SERCAL annual meeting. 

WT


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas PERU" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity


Dear Wayne,

In my point of viewn, ecosystem functions directly refer to how energy
flows are shaped through ecosystem and how they allow ecosystem to
maintain by themselves (without human intervention this time). So, when we measure a functional diversity we try to evaluate the number of different 
ways a given energy flow can be realized. One aim is to link living
communities diversities to ecosystem functioning (energy flow) and so
define how organisms participate to the success of energy transfer.
This is a quite fuzzy and very general definition but I hope this helps. 

Regards,


Nicolas
Le Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:43:00 +0200, Wayne Tyson <[email protected]> a écrit: 


Thanks, Juan; I do appreciate the reference, but I am looking for a
simper answer than that--a scientifically-based explanation of what
ecosystem function means as an actual or theoretical feature of actual
ecosystems. I am definitely not interested in ". . . an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on ecosystems to survive) because is described 
as the capacity of the natural processes to provide an array of direct
or indirect services or benefits to humans." I would be delighted to
hear a discussion of benefits to humans some other time, however, but I 
do not want this discussion to wander off the central, very basic
question now.

WT


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Juan Alvez
  To: Wayne Tyson
  Cc: [email protected]
  Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:25 AM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity


  Hi Wayne,
You can best visualize ecosystem functions in a paper written 10 years 
ago by De Groot and others,
(Ref: de Groot, R.S., Wilson, M.A., Boumans, R.M.J., 2002. A typology 
for the classification, description and valuation of ecosystem
functions, goods and services. Ecological Economics 41, 393-408.).
  It describes four main ecosystem functions (regulation [climate,
nutrient cycling, polination], habitat [refugia, nursery, etc.],
information [scientific info, recreation, cultural and aesthetic] and
production [food, genetic and medicinal resources, raw materials, etc.] 
functions).
  It is certainly an anthropocentric concept (as humans depend on
ecosystems to survive) because is described as the capacity of the
natural processes to provide an array of direct or indirect services or 
benefits to humans.

  Best,
  Juan


  On 9/26/2012 10:11 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote:

    Please describe function in ecosystems.

    WT

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katharine Miller"
<[email protected]>
    To: <[email protected]>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:07 PM
    Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Visualizing functional diversity


    Hello,
I have used Rao's quadratic entropy to evaluate functional diversity 
between
a number of estuaries for which I also have a GIS database. I would 
like to
    be able to visualize which sites are more functionally similar
across the
    region to evaluate patterns in dispersal, etc.
I know it is possible to use the pairwise functional beta diversity 
values
as a distance matrix in a Mantel test or multivariate regression on distances matrices (MRM) when comparing functional diversity to, for 
    example, environmental data.  Would it also be appropriate to use
these
    values in a PAM or other clustering method to identify estuaries
that are
    more/less similar in functional diversity?
This is likely to sound like a very naive question, but I have done 
an
    extensive literature search and have not found where this has been
done
    before  - perhaps because it is a bad idea for other reasons?

    Any insights and/or references on this approach would be greatly
appreciated.

    Thank you


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--
Nicolas PERU, PhD
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