Hi Alberto, Like Scott B, I’m not going to “die on this hill”, but my issue is that an FQNN is soon to no longer be semantically 1 integer, but 2.
I take the point that to enable compatibility with existing implementations, the ipn-update (see https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-dtn-ipn-update-11.html) introduces a bit-shifting mechanism to encode two 32-bit unsigned integers in a single unsigned 64-bit integer, and that seems really simple to just re-use. But reusing this technique perpetuates the idea that an FQNN is ‘just 1 value’ when it soon won’t be, and it prevents more flexible representations of FQNN ranges (see https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-sipos-dtn-eid-pattern-02.html<https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-sipos-dtn-eid-pattern-02.html#name-dtn-patterns>) that may be adopted in some form in the future. As I believe the intention for the RRTYPE registration is to make rapid progress on something not destined for standardisation, I won’t stand in the way. However, if whatever is being developed later comes back to the IETF for standardisation, I can see these and other discussions resurfacing, and unpicking these things later is just harder. Cheers, Rick From: Alberto Montilla (SPATIAM) [mailto:a.monti...@spatiam.com] Sent: 28 June 2024 11:05 To: sburleig...@gmail.com; Rick Taylor; 'Scott Johnson'; 'Mark Andrews' Cc: 'Erik Kline'; 'dnsop'; d...@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dtn] Re: [DNSOP] Re: Re: Re: IPN and CLA RRTYPEs to support Bundle Protocol RFC9171 FWIW; I support Scott’s view. Returning the FQNN (integer) is probably the best way forward. Rergards; Alberto From: sburleig...@gmail.com <sburleig...@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, June 27, 2024 at 1:07 PM To: 'Rick Taylor' <r...@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, 'Scott Johnson' <sc...@spacelypackets.com>, 'Mark Andrews' <ma...@isc.org> Cc: 'Erik Kline' <ek.i...@gmail.com>, 'dnsop' <dnsop@ietf.org>, d...@ietf.org <d...@ietf.org> Subject: [dtn] Re: [DNSOP] Re: Re: Re: IPN and CLA RRTYPEs to support Bundle Protocol RFC9171 Hi, Rick. I would not fight to the death over this, but I am skeptical that having domain names map to node numbers encoded in CBOR, rather than to node numbers expressed as unsigned integers, would be advantageous. My understanding is that RFC 9171 and later https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dtn-ipn-update/ define the CBOR encoding for BP ipn-scheme endpoint IDs. Scott has indicated several times that he doesn't propose to return EIDs as resources; all he wants returned from a DNS lookup by domain name is the fully qualified node number (allocator number followed by node number) to which that name maps. Section 6.1.1 of the dtn-ipn-update draft explains that the encoding of an FQNN is a 64-bit unsigned integer and explains how that integer value is constructed. One could CBOR-encode that value, which would tell the recipient "Here's an unsigned integer" and indicate the number of octets occupied by that integer value. But it would seem simpler (both in the definition and for implementations) to state in the resource record definition that "The value returned is a 64-bit unsigned integer", so that the recipient instantly knows how to handle it. It is true that the CBOR representation could compress the returned value in many cases, but I would not expect that to be a significant advantage in DNS lookup traffic, which shouldn't be extremely heavy. Again, not a life-or-death consideration for me, but I would prefer the simpler mechanism. Scott -----Original Message----- From: Rick Taylor <r...@tropicalstormsoftware.com> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2024 1:32 AM To: Scott Johnson <sc...@spacelypackets.com>; Mark Andrews <ma...@isc.org> Cc: Erik Kline <ek.i...@gmail.com>; dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>; sburleig...@gmail.com; d...@ietf.org Subject: RE: [DNSOP] Re: [dtn] Re: Re: IPN and CLA RRTYPEs to support Bundle Protocol RFC9171 Hi Both, Comments inline... > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Johnson [mailto:sc...@spacelypackets.com] > Sent: 27 June 2024 04:36 > To: Mark Andrews > Cc: Rick Taylor; Erik Kline; dnsop; sburleig...@gmail.com; > d...@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: [dtn] Re: Re: IPN and CLA RRTYPEs to support > Bundle Protocol RFC9171 > > Hi Mark, > > On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, Mark Andrews wrote: > > >> I broached the possibility of CBOR in discussion on DNSOP before > >> DTN was CCed, making the above point to Scott Burleigh. Our > >> conclusion there, along with Mark Andrews, was that the current > >> verbiage is the current best course of action. I have no personal > >> objection to wire format for the IPN RRTYPE being CBOR, if ScottB > >> and Mark agree that there is gain to be had over using 64-bit unsigned int. > >> > >> That said, it is unclear if appropriate CBOR functions/libraries > >> already exist/are used inside nameserver implementations. If not, > >> that could substantially delay deployment, and/or add burden to > >> implementers. There is an active draft which specifically treats > >> CBOR encoding of RRs ( > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lenders-dns-cbor section > >> 3.2.1), but that document is still an Individual Draft at this point as > >> well. > >> > >> Mark, ScottB, opinions? > > > > What real benefit would CBOR bring over a raw 8 byte value other > > than saying it was entered via X or X.X? > > This would be my criteria exactly. If we can save bytes, ok; lets > consider it. If not, then why? My point wasn't about saving bytes (but of course one doesn't want to go overboard and explode the total length) - as Scott B pointed out, this isn't a resource constrained use-case. My point is about familiarity and commonality. By the time someone has got their head around EIDs, NodeIds, Node Numbers, FQNNs, introducing yet another binary encoding to save some bytes seems a mistake. RFC9171 (the source document for all of BP) has a well-defined CBOR encoding, which is updated in a forwards-compatible way in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dtn-ipn-update/ (currently with IESG), so why not re-use it? It has been intentionally designed such that if in the future NodeIds are expanded again (because 640K is never enough) the format is highly unlikely to need changing. There is also following work within the WG adding 'wildcard' support, whilst still maintaining a consistent, efficient, self-descriptive format. If the RRTYPE is encoding a 'data type' defined by a IETF, I would expect there to be a good reason to deviate from the IETF standard binary encoding. Additionally I think it might make the RRTYPE defining document simpler: You can just normatively reference ipn-update. Cheers, Rick _______________________________________________ dtn mailing list -- d...@ietf.org To unsubscribe send an email to dtn-le...@ietf.org
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