On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 at 12:42:50 +0100
Adam Borowski <kilob...@angband.pl> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 01:14:43AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 at 19:45:02 +0100
>> Adam Borowski <kilob...@angband.pl> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:14:33PM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
>>>> The "too much work" argument is a very embarrassing one - it's the
>>>> genuine duty of distro maintainers to take care of exactly such stuff.
>>>> The argument that something was "too much work" (for the distro
>>>> maintainers, or even the developers) is moot unless you're doing all
>>>> that for yourself or for developers instead of your users.
>>>> Claiming that a decision whether to put a package into /bin or /usr/bin
>>>> (resp *sbin*) was "too much work" is also outright silly, there's zero
>>>> additional workload in placing the package into the right location,
>>>> except for the needed knowhow and decision itself. It's just for the
>>>> laziness of developers of boot/init process when they demand to
>>>> indiscriminately have access to *all* existing binaries in /usr
>>>
>>> The work involved is not just "zero", it's _massive_. Have you looked
>>> at how extensive dependency chains can be for complex setups? Try
>>> mounting a filesystem over wifi that requires a fancy authentication
>>> daemon. Every involved package, and every library recursively depended
>>> upon by one of those packages, would need to be moved
>>> to /{bin,sbin,lib}/.
>>
>> Looks trivial to me: /bin, /sbin executables have their dependencies and
>> libraries in /lib on the same filesystem, just like /usr/bin, /usr/sbin
>> and /usr/lib. What's so complicated?
>
> But _which_ executables and libraries?
Any ELF one.
> Are you prepared to move for example Java to /bin|/lib? It's an insane
> language, yet somehow loved by enterprisey stuff, and is needed to
> authenticate. And its dependency chains are extensive. This is not just
> Java, there are far, far more such weird (to us) setups.
Are you jocking? We were talking of the boot process on a machine
with /usr sitting on it's own partition. Do you know of some Unix that needs
Java to boot or to mount it's filesystems?
> There's no sane way to move libraries at install time -- an universal
> distribution would have to put into /lib anything that even a single user
> needs.
>
> And then, imagine you're the maintainer of some random library. You don't
> care about Java, yet someone wrote java bindings to your library. Suddenly
> you'd need to move everything to /lib. Would you get angry?
>
> At some point, you say "enough".
Yes, I would say "enought", but I would say so to coders who take absurd
design decisions.
>>> Debian, with its north of 1000 developers, decided that, despite trying,
>>> it's a lost cause. Do you think Devuan with 5 can do better?
>>
>> Last time I checked, Devuan does allow having /usr on a separate
>> filesystem from /.
>
> Yes, but only if you use an initrd.
I'm fine with it, I would need it just the same to unlock the cryptsetup'ed
root filesystem.
> Some simple cases might work as such
> support was dropped only late during the Stretch development cycle, but in
> the future, you'd need to change several hundred packages.
Just the same as with systemd, isn't it?
Alessandro
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