On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 21:26:24 +0100, Rowland wrote in message <20170918212624.530e2...@devstation.samdom.example.com>:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 22:09:08 +0200 > Arnt Karlsen <a...@iaksess.no> wrote: > > > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:03:47 +0100, Antony wrote in message > > <201709181703.47988.antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it>: > > > > > On Monday 18 September 2017 at 15:54:16, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 14:35:24 +0100, Antony wrote: > > > > > On Monday 18 September 2017 at 14:27:04, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > > > > > ..and we still haven't proven it good enough for many of them. > > > > And that can _only_ happen on Devuan Jessie LTS' own merit. > > > > > > So, we focus on getting people to use Devuan Jessie - not Wheezy. > > > > ..correct, we disagree on whether or not a minimal Devuan Wheezy > > will be an useful tool. > > > > > > > I don't think there's any point in Devuan attempting to > > > > > support the outdated packages in Debian Wheezy when we are > > > > > already offering an escape route to those syadmins who've > > > > > chosen to stick with Wheezy because they don't want systemd. > > > > > > > > ..you missed my "_minimal_." ;o) > > > > I agree supporting outdated stuff is a waste of time and good > > > > manpower, it'll only be useful to help people update to Devuan > > > > Jessie etc. > > > > > > I don't see the purpose of having a Devuan Wheezy. > > > > ..then we disagree, I only see it as an useful stepping stone > > tool to help (convince) people upgrade to Devuan Jessie etc. > > > > > After all, Debian Wheezy is systemd-free by default (yes, you can > > > install it yourself if you want to, but people who've done that > > > aren't looking for Devuan), so what's the benefit in us > > > advertising a "systemd-free Wheezy" to the world? > > > > ..see above. > > > > > Anyone doing a review of it would say "this is Debian with some > > > optional packages taken out". > > > > ..see above. > > > > > > ..according to http://popcon.debian.org/ 30809 had > > > > popularity-contest 1.56 (wheezy) installed, about 11000 more > > > > have even older versions, and according to our own > > > > http://popcon.devuan.org/ and to http://popcon.debian.org/ we > > > > still don't match the 2693 who might still have 1.46 (lenny) > > > > installed. > > > > > > > > ..plenty good manpower out there we could use here. ;o) > > > > > > What do you expect that "manpower" to do? > > > > ..some of them will help build Devuan in the same way they > > have helped build Debian. > > How many, and who, depends on how we welcome them. > > > > > Not everyone running Debian as a sysadmin (or end user) is going > > > to contribute to the Devuan project. > > > > ..correct. > > > > > > > 2. Those who don't want to upgrade something that's still > > > > > working. > > > > > > > > > > Devuan Jessie is the solution for group 1, and there is no > > > > > solution for group 2 because they're happy with what they've > > > > > already got. > > > > > > > > ..once we have proven e.g. Devuan Jessie LTS etc on their own > > > > merits, they might get curious and wanna try our stuff and wind > > > > up helping out. Just give it time. ;o) > > > > > > 1. Anyone who's running Debian Squeeze or earlier isn't failing to > > > upgrade because of systemd, therefore Devuan isn't an argument in > > > their case. > > > > ..correct, they only need upgrades if they somehow are exposed to > > internet-like threats thru usb-sticks, old floppies, lan wiring, > > dying BIOS chips (BTDT), UEFI firmware with timeouts etc. > > > > > 2. Anyone running Debian Wheezy is either systemd-free, in which > > > case Devuan Wheezy would be identical, or else they've installed > > > systemd themselves, which presumably means they want to run it, > > > and therefore aren't interested in Devuan. > > > > ..you forget the kinda people who got stuck with systemd because > > they trusted Debian to be the good guys. BTDT. > > > > ..the only real difference between your vision of Debian Wheezy > > and Devuan Wheezy is the upgrade path away from systemd. > > > > ..the difference between your vision of Devuan Wheezy and mine, > > is I only want it to contain the bare minimum people might need > > to _safely_ move on upgrading to Devuan Jessie. > > > > ..that bit "_safely_" is what most people hesitating, may wanna > > see a track record on. And, either way, good or bad, we will > > build it. > > > > > 3. Anyone running Debian Wheezy who wants to upgrade to Jessie can > > > upgrade to Devuan Jessie to avoid systemd. If there are problems > > > with that upgrade process, *that*'s what we need help with > > > debugging and fixing. > > > > ..that too, yes. > > > > > 4. Anyone running Debian Jessie who wants to get away from systemd > > > can also upgrade to Devuan Jessie. Again, if there are problems > > > with that upgrade, that's where we need help, not with taking > > > Debian Wheezy, stripping out the optional systemd bits, and > > > relabelling it as Devuan. > > > > ..that's why I said "_minimal_", yank out "everything", > > keep only what people may need to survive upgrading > > from Debian Wheezy-and-earlier, to Devuan Jessie. > > > > ..the smaller it is, the easier it will be to support > > and maintain. > > > > The problem is that wheezy is only supported until May next year and > by volunteers. ...whom we might use here. Manpower opportunity right there. They volonteer because they see a need to help people in need, just like they did helping build Debian. ..and, they are on a deadline. > You are suggesting that Devuan uses some of its > precious resources to support something that is probably going to be > EOL by the time Devuan has it fully up and running. ..temporarily, yes, I believe this will be a worthwhile investment. > This would take away time from Jessie and Ascii. ..correct in the short term, hopefully not in the long term. > Which do you think Devuan should support, a dying Debian version or > the supported Devuan version and its replacement ? ..above all, the volonteers trying to help people stuck there. I only see my minima "Devuan Wheezy" idea as an upgrade tool towards Devuan Jessie. ..hopefully as simple as a metapackage for nosystemd-unstable and debootstrap? Or a flavor? Basically a Wheezy netboot copy with our stuff thrown in and handily useful to the volonteers. > I know which I would vote for, especially as you can upgrade from > wheezy to Devuan Jessie very easily. ..aye. Now try convince some nervous bean counter on a deadline it can be done safely so he doesn't get fired for letting his IT guy try do the right thing. ..chances are we agree when we are done growling. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. _______________________________________________ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
