FWIW: Communication is hard but I like what I'm hearing about relying on and expecting the people around us to be compassionate and help out when there's a misunderstanding. All the resolutions in the world won't fix things if that common sense baseline isn't upheld.
Civility is surprisingly easy to let go of when emotions are high, but I think everyone agrees it's a required foundation for any communication, especially during disagreements. To one of Gris' points too, I'm a native English speaker and when mailing list volume gets high I can't track things either; anything people can do to keep things simple and clear is appreciated by readers. Short, clear sentences, bullets, making a mail "visually clear," etc., are all valuable approaches. Thanks for the discussion. On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 11:55 AM Griselda Cuevas <g...@google.com.invalid> wrote: > My actionable input: > I agree with Myrle, I'd prioritize having language simplification in > websites and docs, and I'd like to explore we draft recommendations in how > to write inclusive and effective emails (since everything happens in the > mailing list). > > My non-actionable input: > As a non-native speaker, joining long elaborated email threads is > difficult, daunting and scary. I struggle to destill all points and ideas, > specially in threads that are not in tree structure. I don't know who > responded to who and what points got lost where. This is one of the primary > reasons why I don't like email. People also tend to write unnecessarly long > emails. > > I'd disagree with the assumption that if someone is highly educated we > could handle these conversations. I have a Masters degree and I struggle > with long conversations and some words. I speak 4 languages and my struggle > with all of them is the same. I am not a language person. This is why I > always use bullets in my emails, I try to order my thoughts and give them > sequence. > > On Fri, May 31, 2019, 1:20 PM Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com.invalid> wrote: > > > I've never tried to live in a foreign country, but when I've traveled to > > places where I have already learned some of the language, simple signs > are > > definitely helpful, but even more helpful are friendly people who figure > > out I'm not fluent and choose their own words to help me understand and > > learn. > > > > My 2 cents, > > -Alex > > > > On 5/30/19, 11:45 PM, "Myrle Krantz" <my...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > I do think our focus, with respect to simplifying our language, needs > > to be > > on websites and documentation rather than on mailing list > > communications. > > > > I’ve been in Germany for nearly 20 years. As such I’ve developed a > lot > > of > > habits for speaking with non-Native speakers of English. And I still > > slip > > up on a regular basis. > > > > From the other side, I speak excellent German. But I usually don’t > even > > bother with the 200 euro question on “Wer wird Millionär?” (Who > wants > > to > > be a millionaire?) I just don’t have much chance when we’re talking > > about > > German children’s rhymes and old television shows; I didn’t spend my > > childhood here. Things that feel *really* basic to a native speaker, > > often > > just aren’t. > > > > That makes this an area where „testing“ is necessary: you won’t > really > > be > > able to tell where you’re losing people until you actually do lose > > them. So > > people need to feel safe saying “I’m confused; can you say it > > differently > > please?” > > > > Best, > > Myrle > > > > On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 5:28 PM Patricia Shanahan <p...@acm.org> > > wrote: > > > > > There has been a discussion on board@, subject "[Sidebar] [D&I] > > Example > > > of exclusion from debate", about writing English in a style that > > will be > > > accessible to as many ASF participants as possible. > > > > > > Tools for evaluating writing have been mentioned. > > > > > > LIX index: > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLix_(readability_test&data=02%7C01%7Caharui%40adobe.com%7Cc649cee25ecb44af958108d6e5938265%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636948819043273578&sdata=I5ur8kQPQbft33SjGC2IO3NlXPYDn5V8djznW6EAm18%3D&reserved=0) > > > > > > Gunning-Fog: > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.webfx.com%2Ftools%2Fread-able%2Fgunning-fog.html&data=02%7C01%7Caharui%40adobe.com%7Cc649cee25ecb44af958108d6e5938265%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636948819043273578&sdata=doarWUmgR6y8Nmf1UnymjUX8yyX9HHO8BmJpUVBqVbI%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > I have a concern about both of those. They seem to be keyed to the > > > sequence in which children develop written language skills in > school. > > > > > > Most ASF participants are educated adults, typically very > > sophisticated > > > readers and writers of at least one language. My question, > especially > > > for those who are not completely fluent in written English, is > > whether > > > the same things give them difficulty. > > > > > > I have studied French, and can read it a bit. Complex sentence > > structure > > > and multi-syllable words are no problem for me. Colloquial > > expressions > > > and cultural references, even using single syllable words and short > > > sentences, are much harder to understand. > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > >
