Hello Pavel,
Thank you for your thoughts. It strikes me that perhaps what you're
advising me to do, is likely what I was wanting to do in the first
place. I certainly don't feel dissatisfied being a non-packager in
Fedora land, and I am probably a bit guilty of exageration of the
difficulties on the road to becoming a packager. Honestly, I am looking
forward to setting up to do some testing for now.
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to offer me the options
available to become a packager, this is indeed a good part of why I
enjoy being part of the community that is Fedora.

Regards,
Stephen

On Mon, 2021-08-16 at 19:59 +0200, Pavel Valena wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 1:38 PM Stephen Snow <s40...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hello Dan,
> > Thank you for reaching out with your response. I have to admit, I
> > was
> > in a provocotive mood the other day. I had solved a problem for a
> > customer that had been worked on unsuccessfully by a local
> > competitor
> > for three weeks. I was at that moment the master of my trade craft
> > and
> > in fully glory. I bought some beer to celebrate and the resulting
> > email
> > came out. So that is not to say I wasn't at least venting some
> > portion
> > of truth. Please bear with me as I have spent 6 decades walking
> > upright, and sometimes I find laying the foundation of a
> > conversation
> > requires preparation.
> > I have built RPM's and SRPM's according to RedHat specifications, I
> > think using their tutorials. I have also built an unoffical flatpak
> > of
> > the IntelliJ IDE IDEA. So as for technical capability, I can read a
> > manual as well as the next person.
> > My thoughts were that the sponsoring, the proven packagers were
> > supposed to be package mentors I thought originally, shouldn't
> > happen
> > until after sign up, and sign up is preconditioned by a basic CBT
> > course with "build an RPM" test as final progression criteria for
> > getting to ask for a sponsor. Not something inhibiting but just
> > build a
> > simple RPM to cover tha basic process. My reasoning is the process
> > for
> > getting onboarded should, like accepting a resume or CV from anyone
> > at
> > anytime, be an open door. In order to capatilize on numbers
> > certainly
> > but also to encourage the real potential individuals who can
> > contribute
> > technically, but are severely hampered by initial barriers. Even if
> > the
> > barriers are only perceived ones. The initial CBT I mentioned would
> > be
> > a way for someone like that to get a "free test". A sort of
> > confidence
> > boost that takes nothing but their time, and allows them to show
> > they
> > can do that part. Also, if they have difficulties doing a simple
> > RPM,
> > they could take some time to get that going and come back to try
> > again.
> > All of this can happen without the need for a sponsor getting
> > involved
> > until a minimum level of capability is ascertained, which should
> > offload some time (for sponsors), though likely minimal I would
> > guess.
> > We could make it a badge.
> > 
> 
> 
> Hello Stephen,
> 
> I think this situation is very unfortunate and unintended. I think
> you can do (or you can start doing it) what you came to do in Fedora,
> without the "packager status".  In general when you already have some
> project / package in Fedora that you want to maintain, you can start
> to work on it straight away, as a part of gaining your packager
> status. That is, while receiving feedback /advice/ from sponsor. It's
> a way to gain the actual skill to become a packager - I don't think
> any robot/test can replace that. I don't think packaging is about
> just doing builds, in a way "it works", but rather creating a good
> spec file / good package that will last for years.
> 
> Doing unofficial reviews for a package you want to get into Fedora,
> or submitting a new package review request (if you want to get it to
> Fedora), or re-review request (if you want to unorphan the package).
> Creating PRs with an enhancement / or package upgrade. Last one you
> can even do anonymously:
> 
>  
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintenance_guide#Using_fedpkg_anonymously
> 
> All of the above are IMO examples of what packager does. There's no
> reason to do something else - you can just start straight away with
> what you intend to do, and get a "packager" status later. Or is there
> an obstacle that you packager status for, to do anything meaningful
> for you? 
> 
> I really hope there's a path to achieve what you came to Fedora for.
> If not, I'd argue it needs to be created. 
> 
> I don't think the idea of getting a packager status, just to get it
> reverted some time later, wouldn't help you to become a (better)
> packager. For all the best ways of collaboration (which is IMHO what
> Fedora is all about) you don't need the packager status for.
> 
> Regards,
> Pavel
> 
> 
>  
> > 
> > On Thu, 2021-08-12 at 19:58 +0000, Dan Čermák wrote:
> > > I'd also like to plug Jakub's new sponsor page:
> > > https://docs.pagure.org/fedora-sponsors/all
> > > 
> > > There you can find all currently active sponsors by language,
> > > interest, etc.
> > > 
> > I like the work Jakub did on the sponsor page. This is a good way
> > to
> > present them.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > 
> > > Dan
> > As for Eclipse in Fedora Linux, sadly I must say I left trying to
> > get
> > Eclipse going on Fedora Linux (Silverblue now) some time ago, in
> > favour
> > of doing what I needed in my home directory, including maven and
> > graal,
> > and using netbeans flatpak for IDE because it works. I don't blame
> > Fedora Linux or the related packagers, the satate of Java can be
> > fully
> > blamed on the corporate entities involved at the heart of java. 
> > I think the packing group is doing the work, they are the ones who
> > put
> > together this thing we call Fedora Linux.
> > 
> > As for myself, I have enjoyed the benefits of Fedora Linux for a
> > very
> > long time and appreciate the efforts daily. I would like to return
> > more
> > than appreciation to the community and that is my impetus for
> > wanting
> > to package. I think I will take Chris Murphy's advice and start
> > with
> > reviews for now, there is a rather long backlog it seems.
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Stephen
> > > 
> > > On August 12, 2021 7:29:10 AM UTC, Felix Schwarz
> > > <fschw...@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > > > Hi Stephen,
> > > > 
> > > > thank you for your interest in contributing to Fedora. I can
> > > > totally understand
> > > > that the current policies may seem overwhelming so that
> > becoming a
> > > > packager
> > > > might be seen as some kind of "elite" status.
> > > > I think I would feel the same way if I didn't become a packager
> > ~10
> > > > years ago.
> > > > 
> > > > However I would like to emphasize Ben's point:
> > > > > I think becoming a packager is not as complicated as you’ve
> > > > > written. To
> > > > > become a packager, you must convince a packager sponsor to
> > > > > sponsor you.
> > > > > That’s all; there is no rule about how to do the convincing.
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe you do 1-2 package updates or fixes (pull request via 
> > > > src.fedoraproject.org) and check the Fedora wiki pages for a
> > list
> > > > of sponsors. 
> > > > Try contacting some of them directly after you verified they
> > are
> > > > still active 
> > > > (mailing list/src.fedoraproject.org). Also it helps usually if
> > > > these sponsors 
> > > > are interested in the languages/tech stack which you tried to
> > > > improve.
> > > > 
> > > > That being said: Java in Fedora is one of the hardest areas to
> > > > tackle. Several 
> > > > "high profile" packagers had to give up on that task (despite
> > > > heroic efforts) 
> > > > because it is just too much for one person (or a small team).
> > > > 
> > > > Part of the problem is that the Java upstream "culture" does
> > not
> > > > matches the 
> > > > processes of a traditional Linux distribution like Fedora. Lots
> > of
> > > > bundled 
> > > > dependencies, "secret" build processes and on top a huge number
> > of
> > > > small packages.
> > > > 
> > > > I can understand that "keeping Eclipse in Fedora" is a worthy
> > goal
> > > > for sure but 
> > > > really a lot of work. Other areas like Python packaging are
> > much
> > > > easier as 
> > > > applications tend to be smaller and bundling is less common in
> > the
> > > > Python world. 
> > > > (Also great efforts by our Python team!)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > One of the things I'd be interested in is "reprocible builds"
> > which
> > > > I think 
> > > > might be easier to contribute. While there is a lot of
> > > > infrastructure to build 
> > > > (= a lot of work) you can also just fix one package at a time
> > > > (probably with a 
> > > > few upstream commits). Even if you stop contributing to Fedora
> > > > after some months 
> > > > or years you advanced the state of Fedora/Linux anyway.
> > > > 
> > > > Felix
> > > > _______________________________________________
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