On Mon, 6 Apr 2020 at 17:05, Leigh Griffin <lgrif...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 2:36 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < > domi...@greysector.net> wrote: > >> On Monday, 06 April 2020 at 12:29, Leigh Griffin wrote: >> [...] >> > > Yes, this whole "decision" is in dictatorship relation to the >> > > community. >> > > >> > > Not following the standard procedures caused that I and probably >> > > many people in the community didn't pay much attention to it. >> > >> > We followed the procedures that were outlined to us. >> >> So you think "just following procedures" makes it all right and gives >> you mandate to continuing to pursue a decision that the community is >> telling you was wrong despite your following procedures? >> > > Our stakeholder and engagement point as a team is Fedora Council. If you > have issues with how this was handled from a relationship perspective then > please take that up with the Council. We have engaged with fesco in the > past at the request of Council and will engage with them in the future in a > similar manner. > > >> >> > > I thought you are simply going to collect requirements and then we >> > > will talk. Collecting the requirements was actually very useful. >> > > Providing the analysis for the requirements would be useful. >> > > Providing a recommendation would be ok. Providing a "decision" like >> > > that crosses the line. >> > > >> > > It sends quite a bad message that no matter what you start doing for >> > > the community and how useful it becomes, RH management can come at >> > > any time and make your work vanish, which is what is happening here >> > > with pagure on dist-git effort and probably also zuul efforts might >> > > get replaced by Gitlab CI. >> > >> > We have nothing to do with zuul and Gitlab CI may be made available as >> > a service if folks want to use it. >> >> It's not just about CI. You only commented about the least significant >> point of the above paragraph and ignored the rest. That seems to be the >> pattern with your communication. Please change that. >> > > What point would you like me to comment on? Red Hat is not making work > vanish, we are not deleting Pagure from the internet. > Note that I was explicit: "RH management can come at any time and make your work vanish, which is what is happening here with pagure on dist-git effort and probably also zuul efforts might get replaced by Gitlab CI." You took it completely somewhere else. clime > > >> >> [...] >> > > But still, please, listen to what the community is telling you. >> > >> > We are. >> >> That's not the impression you are giving here. >> >> > > While you may have means to force your decision as RH management >> > > representative, doing so can be damaging for both sides (RH and >> > > Fedora). >> > >> > We are not forcing a decision. We are still engaged with the Fedora >> > Council on next steps and factoring in the requirements of the >> > community. Right now, our wider needs are saying we cannot support >> > Pagure and we intend on replacing that with Gitlab from a CPE >> > perspective. >> >> You are forcing a decision because you're refusing to revisit the >> decision you have made *for* the community without the engagement that >> the community feels was required. > > > This decision is made for 2x communities, 1x internal stakeholder and the > CPE team. This decision is impacting 4 groups. If you feel so strongly that > the decision should be revisited in some way shape or form, make your > protests known to the Fedora Council. We engage at that level. > > >> If you had stopped at the first >> objections and revisited the decision making process with the rest of >> the community involved in an open manner, you would have been forgiven, >> because everyone here is trying to assume good faith. Alas, you haven't >> done that. Apologizing for your mistakes is a necessary step, but it's >> not sufficient. >> > > Ok let's scenario this out so as several people want us to restart and go > again, largely because they disagree with the decision and Pagure is the > choice that they would have made. If we re-engage now, I firmly believe we > will get a whole new set of requirements to complement the existing > requirements but scoped deliberately (as has been suggested by numerous > replies) to a situation where Pagure is the only choice for Fedora. How do > we accommodate that when our other stakeholders' needs are now not being > met as a whole and when the original requirements needs are being satisfied > by the choice of Gitlab (which will most likely be CE for Fedora). What > happens then, how do you suggest we proceed at that point? The other > stakeholder groups are already progressing with Gitlab and we can do that > for them and pause the Fedora move in this direction if that was the > scenario. What happens after months of debate if we cannot bridge that > divide? What happens when Pagure is sunset as the CPE team cannot run it / > maintain it? I'm genuinely curious here as if this is a path the > community want to go down then engage with Council on it but I think it > could be harmful for the project as a whole. That's not my choice though > and until otherwise told, we are progressing in this direction. > > >> >> Regards, >> Dominik >> -- >> Fedora https://getfedora.org | RPM Fusion http://rpmfusion.org >> There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times and >> oppression to develop psychic muscles. >> -- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan >> _______________________________________________ >> devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org >> Fedora Code of Conduct: >> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >> List Archives: >> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >> > > > -- > > Leigh Griffin > > Engineering Manager > > Red Hat Waterford <https://www.redhat.com/> > > Communications House > > Cork Road, Waterford City > > lgrif...@redhat.com > M: +353877545162 IM: lgriffin > @redhatjobs <https://twitter.com/redhatjobs> redhatjobs > <https://www.facebook.com/redhatjobs> @redhatjobs > <https://instagram.com/redhatjobs> > <https://red.ht/sig> > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >
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