On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 13:46, Miro Hrončok <mhron...@redhat.com> wrote:
> On 31. 03. 20 13:09, Clement Verna wrote: > > On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 11:41, Miro Hrončok <mhron...@redhat.com > > <mailto:mhron...@redhat.com>> wrote: > > > > On 31. 03. 20 10:36, Leigh Griffin wrote: > > > I respect that there is disagreement but Gitlab is the choice we > are making. > > > > I always try to assume good intentions, but this is very hard now. I > understand > > this statement as follows: > > > > "After collecting the requirements, we have not discussed the > decision with the > > Fedora community, it was discussed in private. We have decided for > Gitlab and > > only once we have already decided, we have announced our decision to > Fedora. > > Now > > when the people who will be actually using the thing are trying to > participate > > in the discussion, their arguments no longer matter to us, because > the decision > > was already made, whatever you say won't change it, this discussion > is > > pointless." > > > > Am I wrong? > > > > > > I just want to give a bit of insight from someone who is working day to > day on > > Fedora's infrastructure, since I believe that might help give a bit more > empathy > > towards the Why of this decision. > > > > For me the Fedora's Infrastructure is in a very bad shape there is a > fair load > > of technical debt and trying to change or improve anything results in a > long > > list of reason why we can do it because services X depends on service Y > which > > depends on Z. Since I joined the CPE team (little bit more than 2 years > ago) we > > have not been able to make any kind of significant progress towards > fighting > > this technical debt. Every year we fill a white board with what needs to > be done : > > > > * Python 3 apps migration, > > * FAS replacement, > > * fedmsg retirement, > > * FMN replacement, > > * Fedora-packages replacement, > > * PDC replacement, > > * Porting application to OIDC, > > * Improve Releng automation, > > * Improving Anitya and the-new-hotness, > > * ..... > > > > Every single year the same items are coming back because we spend most > of our > > time firefighting services to keep users happy and keep Fedora release > schedule. > > This has a very demoralizing effect on the people working in the team, > it seems > > like we will never be able to make any significant improvement, and our > day to > > day job is to close couple tickets and you keep watching the pile of > tickets > > growing. There is no feeling of accomplishment and a general sentiment > that > > whatever we do, it will suck. > > > > A little over a year ago we have expressed our need to drop > applications, this > > is something we have to do to be able to stay sane and keep a > sustainable > > life-work balance. From that effort to handover applications (Elections, > > Nuancier, Fedocal, Badges) to another group of people in the community, > not much > > happened mainly because of GDPR and the legal responsibility of owning > such > > applications, but as far as I know we don't do much maintenance work on > these > > applications any more since we now have a few volunteers that are > looking after > > them or helping with finding an alternative solution. > > > > Now on the list of application we develop and run, I think Pagure is > logical > > candidate to try and find an alternative to it, but before doing this it > was > > important to make sure we captured all the use case and feature needed > from a > > git forge and see if any of these justified spending cycles in > development and > > maintenance work. My understanding of the decision is that Pagure does > not > > provide any significant advantage over GitLab. I know that for many, the > fact > > that Pagure is developed by Fedora is an advantage, but from my > perspective as > > someone that as to deal with all the other services in Fedora's Infra > this is a > > major disadvantage. > > > > Overall I think it is important to keep in mind that there is a lot of > work > > happening behind the scene to provide the people in the Fedora community > a good > > experience contributing to Fedora. I think we are doing a good job at > it, but > > that takes us an enormous effort and over the long term this is not > sustainable, > > also keeping in mind that we keep adding and want to keep adding new > things to > > Fedora. > > > > I hope that my perspective helps a little. > > Thanks. Just to clarify, I am not criticism the decision per se, I am just > very > sad with the communication around it. > > Most importantly the following: > > 1) At the beginning, it appeared that Fedora will be in the loop when the > decision will be made, but it wasn't. After collecting the requirements, > there > was no Fedora involvement. > > 2) The use cases Fedora collected were (IMHO artificially) merged to "more > general" requirements. > > 3) The "I respect that there is disagreement but Gitlab is the choice we > are > making" attitude. > > I totally respect that this is a choice the CPE needs to make. I am just > not > happy with the way it was handled. > Ok, I think it is good to clarify and I think this is a very good feedback. As you said it always to good to assume best intentions and I honestly think there was no intentions of making this decision without the community involvement otherwise all the requirement gathering would have not happened. My understanding is that there was a Fedora involvement, through the council. I believe that the council represented the community and Fedora's use cases during the discussion and decision. So I think that the role of the council was not obvious to everyone in the community, and that makes the all thing sound like the Fedora community was not involved. After making a decision is never easy and communication is even harder, so I think it is good to note what did not go well and try to understand why so that it can be improved next time. > > -- > Miro Hrončok > -- > Phone: +420777974800 > IRC: mhroncok > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >
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