* Laszlo Ersek (ler...@redhat.com) wrote:
> On 11/07/19 11:18, Dr. David Alan Gilbert wrote:
> > * Laszlo Ersek (ler...@redhat.com) wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> related TianoCore BZ:
> >>
> >> https://bugzilla.tianocore.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1871
> >>
> >> (I'm starting this thread separately because at least some of the topics
> >> are specific to QEMU, and I didn't want to litter the BZ with a
> >> discussion that may not be interesting to all participants CC'd on the
> >> BZ. I am keeping people CC'd on this initial posting; please speak up if
> >> you'd like to be dropped from the email thread.)
> >>
> >> QEMU provides guests with the virtio-rng device, and the OVMF and
> >> ArmVirtQemu* edk2 platforms build EFI_RNG_PROTOCOL on top of that
> >> device. But, that doesn't seem enough for all edk2 use cases.
> >>
> >> Also, virtio-rng (hence EFI_RNG_PROTOCOL too) is optional, and its
> >> absence may affect some other use cases.
> >>
> >>
> >> (1) For UEFI HTTPS boot, TLS would likely benefit from good quality
> >> entropy. If the VM config includes virtio-rng (hence the guest firmware
> >> has EFI_RNG_PROTOCOL), then it should be used as a part of HTTPS boot.
> >>
> >> However, what if virtio-rng (hence EFI_RNG_PROTOCOL) are absent? Should
> >> UEFI HTTPS boot be disabled completely (or prevented / rejected
> >> somehow), blaming lack of good entropy? Or should TLS silently fall back
> >> to "mixing some counters [such as TSC] together and applying a
> >> deterministic cryptographic transformation"?
> >>
> >> IOW, knowing that the TLS setup may not be based on good quality
> >> entropy, should we allow related firmware services to "degrade silently"
> >> (not functionally, but potentially in security), or should we deny the
> >> services altogether?
> >
> > I don't see a downside to insisting that if you want to use https then
> > you must provide an entropy source; they're easy enough to add using
> > virtio-rng if the CPU doesn't provide it.
>
> Possibly true; however it could be considered a usability regression by
> end-users. ("UEFI HTTPS boot used to work, now it breaks with the same
> VM config". Unless we can respond, "UEFI HTTPS boot's TLS init has never
> been secure enough", they'll have a point. See also Ard's followup.)
You could turn it into a scary warning for a few releases first.
> >
> >>
> >> (2) It looks like the SMM driver implementing the privileged part of the
> >> UEFI variable runtime service could need access to good quality entropy,
> >> while running in SMM; in the future.
> >>
> >> This looks problematic on QEMU. Entropy is a valuable resource, and
> >> whatever resource SMM drivers depend on, should not be possible for e.g.
> >> a 3rd party UEFI driver (or even for the runtime OS) to exhaust.
> >> Therefore, it's not *only* the case that SMM drivers must not consume
> >> EFI_RNG_PROTOCOL (which exists at a less critical privilege level, i.e.
> >> outside of SMM/SMRAM), but also that SMM drivers must not depend on the
> >> same piece of *hardware* that feeds EFI_RNG_PROTOCOL.
> >>
> >> Furthermore, assuming we dedicate a hardware entropy device specifically
> >> to SMM drivers, such a device cannot be PCI(e). It would have to be a
> >> platform device at a fixed location (IO port or MMIO) that is only
> >> accessible to such guest code that executes in SMM. IOW, device access
> >> would have to be restricted similarly to pflash. (In fact the variable
> >> SMM driver will need, AIUI, the entropy for encrypting various variable
> >> contents, which are then written into pflash.)
> >
> > Ewww. I guess a virtio-rng instance wired to virtio-mmio could do that.
> > It's a bit grim though.
>
> *shudder* please let's keep virtio-mmio (or any remotely enumerable /
> complex "bus" thingy) out of this :( I'm all for extensible hardware
> interfaces, but cramming more and more infrastructure code into SMM
> looks very questionable to me.
The reason I suggested virtio-mmio was because it's not enumerable; it's
a fixed location; so you just check that the device you have there is
what you expect.
It means not inventing a new qemu device (although you would have to
make it addable on x86, and you would have to make it hideable in SMM).
(pci with preallocated addresses is similar).
> My main concern here is that most physical platform vendors will just
> solder some physical entropy-gen chip onto their boards, and then
> hard-code the MMIO base address of that as a build-time constant in
> their firmware blobs. This obviously won't work for QEMU, where the hw
> can change from boot to boot; so the generic edk2 solution (regardless
> of the actual chip) need to allow for that kind of dynamism. This is a
> recurrent problem between QEMU and edk2, alas. The answer is of course
> dynamic detection, but I *still* like to keep the enumeration logic to
> the absolute minimum in SMM.
While the hw can change from boot to boot on qemu, there's no
requirement that as a bios you respect that; just state where you want
the device.
Dave
> Thanks!
> Laszlo
>
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >> Alternatively, CPU instructions could exist that return entropy, and are
> >> executable only inside SMM. It seems that e.g. RDRAND can be trapped in
> >> guests ("A VMEXIT due to RDRAND will have exit reason 57 (decimal)").
> >> Then KVM / QEMU could provide any particular implementation we wanted --
> >> for example an exception could be injected unless RDRAND had been
> >> executed from within SMM. Unfortunately, such an arbitrary restriction
> >> (of RDRAND to SMM) would diverge from the Intel SDM, and would likely
> >> break other (non-SMM) guest code.
> >>
> >> Does a platform device that is dynamically detectable and usable in SMM
> >> only seem like an acceptable design for QEMU?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Laszlo
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > Dr. David Alan Gilbert / dgilb...@redhat.com / Manchester, UK
> >
>
--
Dr. David Alan Gilbert / dgilb...@redhat.com / Manchester, UK
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