Hi Joshua, Thank you for amplifying the main issue.
> On Dec 13, 2021, at 8:33 AM, Joshua Odmark <j...@pandio.com> wrote: > > I am not surprised you’re doubling down on what everyone is objecting to > you doing. > > Thank you for admitting that you’re using your status as a PMC member for > financial gain. Emphasizing PMC as a marker of status instead of responsibility is precisely the issue here. SIJIE: Here is a resource on the Apache website about this issue: https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats Unless you need to speak for the project (e.g. reaching out about trademark usage), all activity is always as an individual. The problem right now is that some are using their PMC member’s hat in the wrong way. The PMC needs to make decisions by consensus and that is not always happening: https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#decision-making > > On Dec 10, 2021 at 11:40:00 PM, Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Joshua, >> >> Thanks for your response. Please allow me to clarify. >> >> First, I completely agree with you that SN != Pulsar. Although, I am also a >> bit wordless as to why you brought up such a salient point. In addition, I >> don't have any experience participating in the Kafka community, therefore I >> cannot opine on your assessment of the Kafka community. >> >> Second, there is no such thing as “inside access” because if you truly >> understand the Apache Way, all the decisions are carried out publicly and >> each PMC member can provide his/her thoughts. Then, the PMC can vote or >> reject any proposals. ANYONE can discuss any ideas and propose any topics >> with any PMC member regardless of where they work and bring the final >> proposal to discuss in the mailing list. (1) See the decision making reference. The whole community decides by LAZY CONSENSUS. The PMC (as a whole) uses binding votes only when needed, but the opinion of the whole community - anyone who is here on the dev@pulsar mailing list needs to be considered. (2) Let’s review https://streamnative.io/ambassador/ and I’ll explain what is inconsistent with The Apache Way. - At the top, "[StreamNative Ambassador Program 2022] Join the program for the opportunity to work directly with Pulsar PMC members, contribute to the project roadmap, and more!” When you are working for a company you are not in the PMC role. The PMC is a whole. You cannot make this claim for this program. - Why be an SN Ambassador “… Pulsar community leaders and engineers, the opportunity to contribute to the project roadmap, and much more” It is not correct for SN to be a middle man for Community development. Now if you want to teach Ambassadors how to contribute to the whole community that could be better explained. - "The opportunity to work directly with Pulsar and StreamNative developers and founders”. You can’t make this claim for Pulsar. - "The support of the Pulsar and StreamNative communities”. You don’t have support of the Pulsar community. - "Front row access to the Pulsar roadmap”. This is simply false. dev@pulsar.apache.org is front row access. THIS IS AN OPEN SOURCE APACHE PROJECT! >> >> Third, I’d like to iterate the response I provided to Chris: the SN program >> merely provides the opportunity for the participants to brainstorm ideas >> with the PMC members who are currently working at SN. It is worth noticing >> that the vast majority of the Pulsar PMC members do not even work for SN. Exactly. And this is why SN must claim they are acting as PMC members while working at SN. When they are here in the open community they do wear that hat, but only when needed. >> >> Hope my responses clear things up a bit. Please Let me know if you have any >> further questions. I hope you understand “hats" better now. If not then escalations for this situation are warranted. Regards, Dave >> >> Thanks, >> Sijie >> >> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 8:16 PM Joshua Odmark <j...@pandio.com> wrote: >> >> I don’t think anyone is surprised that you, the CEO of SN, doesn’t see a >> >> problem with you conflating a program offered by your own commercial >> >> company, that in the exact same sentence, invites people to join a SN >> >> sponsored opportunity to work on the roadmap with the PMC. That is quite >> >> literally offering inside access through your commercial entity. You did it >> >> again in your response. >> >> >> I understand how decisions are made in ASF and I couldn’t think less of SN. >> >> >> It’s like me saying, I am good friends with the CEO of Ford Motor Company. >> >> If you want Ford Motor Company as a customer, you should join my Ford >> >> Ambassador Program. Ford would have a problem with that, and so should the >> >> PMC of Apache Pulsar. >> >> >> This is exactly what Confluent started doing with the Kafka community. They >> >> did everything they could to make Confluent == Kafka. Great for Confluent, >> >> terrible for the community. >> >> >> SN != Pulsar >> >> >> On Dec 10, 2021 at 7:25:29 PM, Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> Chris and Dave, >> >>> >> >>> Thank you for bringing the concern up. However, I don’t think the concern >> >>> of this tweet is valid, and also the complaint of “StreamNative controls >> >>> the roadmap” sounds ridiculous to me. >> >>> >> >>> First of all, under the Apache Way, PMC controls the roadmap. >> >>> >> >>> Lots of StreamNative team members are long-time ASF contributors. In >> >>> relation to adhering strictly to the ASF policy, we understand it very >> >> well >> >>> and we follow the Apache Way. To be more specific, as Dave mentioned in >> >> his >> >>> email, we understand that the Apache Way says “If it is not on the dev >> >>> list, it doesn’t happen”. That’s exactly how our team members make >> >>> contributions and participate in the community. We not only ask our team >> >>> members to follow the Apache Way, but also encourage our users, >> >> customers, >> >>> and partners to participate in the community in the same manner. >> >>> >> >>> To iterate, all the discussions/proposals made in the dev mailing list >> >> must >> >>> be approved/rejected by the PMC. Hence the PMC has the ultimate say (not >> >>> StreamNative) in the direction of the project. Your false accusation of >> >>> StreamNative controlling the roadmap indicates that either you don’t >> >> fully >> >>> understand how the decision is made in ASF or you think way too much of >> >>> StreamNative :) >> >>> >> >>> Secondly, EVERYONE can contribute to the project roadmap. PMC >> >>> approves/rejects proposals by casting its votes. This is how the ASF >> >>> community works and how the ASF maintains vendor-neutral. No one except >> >> PMC >> >>> controls the roadmap but EVERYONE has the freedom to propose and >> >>> contribute. >> >>> >> >>> To elaborate more on the process, every PMC member has the free right and >> >>> should be encouraged to talk to the broader community to discuss ideas. >> >>> They bring ideas back to the mailing list for discussion. We work with >> >>> Pulsar users and customers every day. We observe and learn what the users >> >>> are doing, discussing, and requesting. We then bring the ideas back as >> >>> proposals or encourage the users/customers to propose the ideas directly >> >> in >> >>> the mailing list which as discussed above, to be approved/rejected by the >> >>> PMC. >> >>> >> >>> At StreamNative, we are extremely fortunate to work with the PMC members, >> >>> committers, and contributors who help and guide people to contribute to >> >> the >> >>> project roadmap and empower the community. If anyone is interested in how >> >>> the Ambassador Program works, I would encourage everyone to sign up for >> >> the >> >>> program to help us grow the adoption of Apache Pulsar. >> >>> >> >>> Lastly, my humble suggestion - if you are really passionate about Pulsar, >> >>> let’s do something positive for the community instead of passing >> >> complaints >> >>> and creating false accusations. You are welcome to submit a PIP or PR, >> >> talk >> >>> to the users in the community to hear what the users really need, improve >> >>> the software, and organize a meetup, etc. I am more than happy to help >> >> you >> >>> get started contributing. >> >>> >> >>> - Sijie >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 12:57 PM Chris Latimer <ch...@chrislatimer.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Saying that tweet implies that SN wants to control the roadmap is putting >> >>> >> >>> it mildly. It is very clearly stating that StreamNative controls the >> >>> >> >>> roadmap and that the way to get involved and help shape the technology is >> >>> >> >>> by engaging with SN via their Ambassador program. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 1:47 PM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> On Dec 9, 2021, at 3:24 PM, Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Dave - I don't think SN presents the community. We just shared out >> >>> >> >>>> insights >> >>> >> >>>>> on community progress. Also, if you looked into our past blog posts, >> >> we >> >>> >> >>>>> have been pointing people to the Pulsar website and Slack channel. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> This tweet >> >> https://twitter.com/streamnativeio/status/1469366308022013953 >> >>> >> >>>> from today implies SN wants to control the roadmap. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> In the Apache Way the project roadmap is discussed on the dev list. If >> >>> >> >>>> it’s not on the dev list it didn’t happen. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> Dave >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> - Sijie >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 12:13 PM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> OK. I see the new name. >> >>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> My concern is about SN posting blogs that are about community news >> >>> >> >>>> without >> >>> >> >>>>>> telling readers where the whole Pulsar community can be found. >> >>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> On Dec 9, 2021, at 6:18 AM, Dianjin Wang <djw...@streamnative.io >> >>> >> >>>> .INVALID> >> >>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> I want to sync the blog status, the update has been done. >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> Best, >> >>> >> >>>>>>> Dianjin Wang >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 2:34 PM Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> Hi Dave, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> Will follow up tomorrow morning (Pacific Time). >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> - Sijie >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 9:35 PM Dave Fisher <wave4d...@comcast.net >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> Hi Sijie, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for handling this issue. I’ll check in my morning. There >> >>> >> >>> was a >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> reference on the Community Newsletter as well. Please check that >> >>> >> >>> too. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> Best Regards, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dave >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 9:24 PM, Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Dave, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> I think that is a mistake. We already caught it. Dianjin is >> >> fixing >> >>> >> >>>> it. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> - Sijie >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 11:41 AM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> >> >>> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> This is great news! >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> However the ending of the blog post [1] does not follow the >> >>> >> >>> Apache >> >>> >> >>>>>> Way >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> This bullet point is misleading and serves to split the >> >>> >> >>> community. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> • Join the 2022 Pulsar Ambassador Program and work directly >> >> with >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> Pulsar >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> PMCs and top contributors to co-host events, promote new >> >> project >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> updates, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> and build the Pulsar community in your city. Contact Us: >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> ambassa...@streamnative.io >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> (1) This mailing list (dev@pulsar.apache.org) is the one and >> >>> >> >>> only >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> place >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> to work directly with the whole of the Apache Pulsar community. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> (2) If you engage in this unofficial, vendor-specific >> >>> >> >>> “Ambassador” >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> program >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> you are not growing the whole and miss connecting with most of >> >>> >> >>> the >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> true >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Apache Pulsar community. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Please rewrite or remove this divisive bullet point. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Here is a blog post about how Apache is supposed to work. [2] >> >> And >> >>> >> >>>>>> more >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> about the Apache Way [3] >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> FYI - PMCs is plural for PMC. Apache Pulsar is one of 200+ >> >> Apache >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> PMCs. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> PMC’s have members who are individuals. Here are definitions of >> >>> >> >>>> roles >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> [4]. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> The community consists of people who are in all of these >> >> roles. A >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> project >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> is supposed to be managed as described here. [5] >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> All The Best, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Dave >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [1] >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> https://streamnative.io/blog/community/2021-12-07-pulsar-hits-10000-github-stars-milestone/ >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [2] >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the-apache-way-to-sustainable >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [3] https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/index.html >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [4] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> [5] >> >>> >> >>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 7, 2021, at 9:36 PM, Yu <li...@apache.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Pulsar enthusiasts, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Our community has been growing ever-faster since it became a >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> top-level >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> project of the ASF in 2018. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Recently, Pulsar hits 10, 000 Github stars milestone! We would >> >>> >> >>>> like >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> to >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thank every stargazer for joining us on the journey. More >> >>> >> >>>>>> importantly, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thank you to every Pulsar user, contributor, and committer for >> >>> >> >>>> making >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> this >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> happen! >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here is a glance at the vibrancy of the Pulsar community: >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> For more details about Pulsar's community growth, recent >> >>> >> >>> updates, >> >>> >> >>>>>> and >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> future plans, see here. >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Anonymitaet >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>
