Hi Raiden, I am sorry....you are right.
The initial discussion was initiated on the project management list since we wanted to align and set the initial targets We can start a similar thread on dev and then summarize the targets. Best regards Alin On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 12:34 PM raiden00pl <raiden0...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I started a thread some time ago asking for imput and wishes from all of > us > so that we cans set some goals and create a roadmap > Unfortunately the mail got little traction....maybe now we can revive it > and complete a roadmap > > Was it posted on this list (dev@nuttx)? I don't recall such a thread here. > Either I completely forgot about it or I missed it. > > śr., 29 sty 2025 o 12:30 Simon Filgis <si...@ingenieurbuero-filgis.de> > napisał(a): > > > Just for my understanding, could I vote -1 for a release that is not > > building/working properly for my board? > > > > Alin Jerpelea <jerpe...@gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 29. Jan. 2025, 12:24: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I started a thread some time ago asking for imput and wishes from all > of > > us > > > so that we cans set some goals and create a roadmap > > > Unfortunately the mail got little traction....maybe now we can revive > it > > > and complete a roadmap > > > > > > Best regards > > > Alin > > > > > > On Wed, 29 Jan 2025, 12:14 raiden00pl, <raiden0...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I completely agree that project management in NuttX is either lacking > > or > > > > completely non-existent. I think the lack of a generally accepted > road > > > map > > > > for > > > > the project is the biggest problem here. TBH we don't even know where > > > > the project is headed. Probably if this large number of commits were > > > > supported > > > > by some kind of roadmap so that it would be known what the goal of > > these > > > > changes is - it would make more sense. > > > > > > > > In the long run, without coordinated collaboration between teams > > working > > > > separately on NuttX and without a commonly accepted roadmap, I think > > the > > > > project > > > > may fail spectacularly. > > > > > > > > This is where the advantage of BDFL projects comes in. One person has > > > > authority over the project and manages it according to his/her > vision. > > > > Managing a project in a distributed manner is a difficult task, > > > > and so far we are not succeeding at it. I think NuttX hasn't > correctly > > > > transitioned from being managed by Greg (BDFL model) to being managed > > by > > > > distributed management yet. And this is the biggest problem here. > > > > > > > > And how to fix it? I have no idea, but I don't think limiting the > > number > > > of > > > > changes > > > > to the project is a solution. Maybe a good first step is to discuss > and > > > > establish > > > > a project roadmap with its contributors and companies that are > > interested > > > > in it. > > > > But this requires someone to coordinate the process and preferably > has > > > > experience > > > > in managing distributed open source projects. I don't know if we have > > > such > > > > a person in our group. > > > > > > > > śr., 29 sty 2025 o 11:33 Sebastien Lorquet <sebast...@lorquet.fr> > > > > napisał(a): > > > > > > > > > hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29/01/2025 10:21, raiden00pl wrote: > > > > > > Sebastian, so you're saying that you and your company have the > > > > resources > > > > > to > > > > > > develop > > > > > > and maintain your own RTOS, but you lack the resources to help > > > maintain > > > > > > NuttX (e.g., code review, release testing.)? > > > > > > This either doesn't make sense or you just don't want to > > participate > > > in > > > > > > this project. > > > > > > > > > > I dont have resources for a project as large as nuttx, obviously. > > And I > > > > > dont need to. > > > > > > > > > > it will take some time and it will be much simpler. In fact I have > a > > > > > project that is almost working for this including a vfs. > > > > > > > > > > Or I'll find a project that cares about long term support. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But for sure, I'll get rid of nuttx, thats enough: every time I > > update, > > > > > everything is broken, the build system is not stable, and what used > > to > > > > > work does not work anymore, including things as simple as the > > > > > configure.sh script. it takes ages just to get our code to compile > > > again > > > > > before I can consider any improvement. > > > > > > > > > > I dont have energy to spend for such dumb fixes. I'm loosing my > time > > in > > > > > a completely useless way. > > > > > > > > > > I prefer sending more time being productive with the goal of > > > controlling > > > > > our software stack. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cherry-picking a single commit to justify your frustration isn’t > > > fair. > > > > > > Yes, some commits may be poorly described, but we actively try to > > > > > improve in > > > > > > that regard. With a limited number of contributors, it’s > > > understandable > > > > > > that our > > > > > > reviews aren’t perfect. However, it's worth noting that neither > you > > > nor > > > > > > your company contributed to addressing this issue. > > > > > > > > > > come on, do you really think it's just one commit? if you cant > guess, > > > no > > > > > it isnt. this was just an example to show that your own policies > are > > > not > > > > > even applied correctly. > > > > > > > > > > before using ai to review pull requests, just make sure that commit > > > > > messages are useful! But you cant, there's too many stuff to check. > > > > > that's a huge red flag for me. > > > > > > > > > > it's an accumulation of problems, for years, with no changes, and > > it's > > > > > getting worse. The more you add auto tool, the more they are > > > > > circumvented, because developers know that no one will check. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I dont want to fix anything in nuttx anymore. it's no use. I'm > a > > > > > drop in an ocean, just complaining to a community that does not > care > > > and > > > > > just want to code faster than light. > > > > > > > > > > also, you have several developers pushing hundreds of commit every > > > week. > > > > > if they wanted to fix anything, they would do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s completely fine, everyone has different priorities. What > is > > > NOT > > > > > OK is > > > > > > criticizing those who dedicate their time to this project, often > > > > > > voluntarily. > > > > > > This is one of the biggest problems with open source projects: > > > > > > people who give little, demand a lot and complain about others. > > > > > > > > > > there are different way to dedicate available time. > > > > > > > > > > My conclusion is that volunteers here are not spending their time > > > wisely. > > > > > > > > > > I have no wish to spend energy for project management. But I can > see > > > > > that something is wrong here, definitely. > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if your product works on earlier NuttX releases, wouldn’t it > > be > > > > > easier > > > > > > to stick with a stable release and selectively cherry-pick only > the > > > > > changes > > > > > > that matter to you? > > > > > > > > > > Tried to do that for tcp keep alive, which is broken in the > version I > > > > > was using. but the full network stack has completely changed in a > few > > > > > months. I cant cherry pick and apply anything. > > > > > > > > > > thats beyond frustration. > > > > > > > > > > I need a full nuttx upgrade after one year and first thing I need > to > > > > > understand is why configure.sh is complaining about sed. wtf??? > > > > > > > > > > so the only way to use nuttx long term is by following the master > > > branch > > > > > every day? > > > > > > > > > > that is not going to happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a pity that you're leaving because I remember that you've > been > > > in > > > > > this > > > > > > community for a very long time. Your critical perspective (the > > > correct > > > > > way > > > > > > of > > > > > > doing engineering IMO) was really useful and is something that is > > > > > > unfortunately > > > > > > disappearing in today's world. > > > > > > > > > > this is sad but my conclusion is I cant change anything in this > > > project, > > > > > so it's no use banging my head on the wall with no purpose. > > > > > > > > > > it would be great if my departure would lead to your reconsidering > of > > > > > this project management and leadership. > > > > > > > > > > if you looked at the reality, and detected that the amount of > commits > > > > > coming daily is not a sustainable way to manage project. > > > > > > > > > > but lets be honest. nothing will happen, right? I've been here for > > long > > > > > enough to be sure of that. > > > > > > > > > > so I'm out. > > > > > > > > > > this is good for you: I'll stop complaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care and good luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > wt., 28 sty 2025 o 16:19 Tomek CEDRO <to...@cedro.info> > > napisał(a): > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 11:23 AM Sebastien Lorquet < > > > > > sebast...@lorquet.fr> > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >>> my trust in nuttx is now hard to maintain. > > > > > >>> Every day a DELUGE of commits (from xiaomi, this is a fact) is > > > added > > > > to > > > > > >>> the repository. > > > > > >>> I am struggling to understand what happens in this project. > > > > > >>> so many fixes are pushed, how is that even possible? this is a > > > > > quicksand > > > > > >>> project! > > > > > >> Sebastien, I feel your pain. Not necessarily with NuttX as this > is > > > my > > > > > >> "safe island". But with all Open-Source in general. This is the > > > result > > > > > >> of enforced-changes ideology introduced ~30 years ago by > Microsoft > > > > > >> that surrounds us even in daily non-computer life. I don't even > > > > > >> mention commercial products that get constantly more expensive > and > > > > > >> clearly have no basic QA process and break ~6 month after > > purchase. > > > I > > > > > >> lost trust in big brands long ago. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> Also, how are such commits (not from xiaomi!) allowed? No > > > description > > > > > >>> except "uf2" ? Where is the adult in charge? > > > > > >> We do what we can, updated documentation and requirements, added > > > > > >> helper bots with feedback, etc, and require sensible > > descriptions. I > > > > > >> even update some PR descriptions by hand. Still it is git log > that > > > > > >> contains the history true. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> There is only few people that review the code. If you could help > > us > > > > > >> that would help a lot! You may not use GH for projects just to > > help > > > us > > > > > >> in review.. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> I am announcing that after that many years my company has > started > > > to > > > > > >>> develop a minimal rtos to replace our usage of nuttx, because > it > > is > > > > > just > > > > > >>> not stable enough to be usable for stable long term projects. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> There are too many changes, we are loosing money every time we > > need > > > > an > > > > > >>> update. there is no way to maintain the use of a nuttx custom > > board > > > > and > > > > > >>> project over several years. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Having control of our code will be a better investment. That > will > > > > > >>> obviously be closed source. Which is, after all, a better way > of > > > > > control > > > > > >>> on our products. > > > > > >> I am facing the same situation for some long years and it gets > > worse > > > > > >> and worse :-( Either use something that is advertised to work > > > quickly > > > > > >> but then you are tied to constant moving target and maintenance > > > > > >> nightmare and if you want to change one simple thing it takes > more > > > > > >> time than would take me to write everything myself. On the other > > > hand > > > > > >> it is impossible to write everything on your own. I wrote from > > > scratch > > > > > >> the LibSWD ~15 years ago to be able to debug.. and it turns out > > > today > > > > > >> that I can do much more today with a commercial probe :-( All > > > previous > > > > > >> project made with fancy pancy RTOS and frameworks are now in > > trash. > > > > > >> Solutions like Linux and FreeRTOS also change API every release > > that > > > > > >> causes maintenance nightmare. I use FreeBSD as OS but it also > has > > > its > > > > > >> own problems, more changes are introduced with every release, > > > drivers > > > > > >> adopted to be compatible by so called "Linux standard" are > > > > > >> self-incompatible nightmare. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am working with niche solutions but the changes come > constantly > > > from > > > > > >> other places and that impacts even those niche solutions. You > will > > > > > >> have the same problem with your own RTOS as I face them in my > own > > > > > >> projects :-( > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This comes mainly from enforced changes ideologies that are > > > advertised > > > > > >> as "innovation" by people with zero old-school coherent simple > and > > > > > >> effective engineering knowledge.. and maybe from exponential > > growth > > > > > >> that is objectively hard to cope without full time team and that > > > > > >> requires funding we have and no one really cases about funding > > > > > >> Open-Source just taking the results for free. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> No amount of my involvement in the github triage is going to > > help, > > > > the > > > > > >>> case is desperate. I just have no time, no energy, no > motivation, > > > no > > > > > >>> spoons left to deal with this. it's a deluge of commits, let it > > be, > > > > but > > > > > >>> without me. > > > > > >> Yes, but what was the last time you helped us in review? This is > > our > > > > > >> best-effort and all brainz matter! Help us to make things good. > I > > > > > >> always valued your constructive criticism on the mailing list.. > it > > > > > >> would be more than welcome and appreciated on GH too. But you > are > > > not > > > > > >> on GH so how can you help? I also dont like Microsoft took over > > > > > >> GitHub, I also dont like their fake support for Open-Source > while > > > its > > > > > >> clearly an exploitation, I also dont like we need to ask for > over > > 5 > > > > > >> years for FreeBSD CI runners and it is rejected every time. I > also > > > use > > > > > >> other platforms to host projects, but this is a common place, a > > > tool. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> the warning from the apache foundation that you use too many ci > > > > credits > > > > > >>> should have been a warning to slow down and reflect on the > > project > > > > > >>> direction. nothing has happened except making it even faster. > > > > > >> Not really. I would expect support from Apache in tuning stuff, > > > maybe > > > > > >> adapting resources to scale of the project (tiny projects have > the > > > > > >> same amount of resources as big projects). We updated and > > optimized > > > > > >> the CI process as a result. We are working on more independent > > > > > >> solutions for both code hosting, build automation, and runtime > > > > > >> testing. But this is not a weekend work for few people in a free > > > time. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I agree there is a problem. But we do what we can to fix it. All > > > > > >> brainz matter. Help us make things good. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> I will also discourage people to use this project, I cannot in > > good > > > > > >>> conscience recommend it to anyone, it would be a trap. > > > > > >> Just as any other Open-Source project nowadays unfortunately. I > > dont > > > > > >> even mention closed source SDKs that change on monthly or weekly > > > basis > > > > > >> and you have nothing to say just to chase the rabbit. I feel > your > > > pain > > > > > >> because I face the same problems for a long time. There is > > however a > > > > > >> difference in enforcing changes just to make things "modern" or > > > adding > > > > > >> modern stuff in best-effort incremental way respecting the > > > old-school > > > > > >> engineering rules that I think we follow here in NuttX. Problems > > > > > >> happen everywhere. The problem is what you do with the problem. > > > > > >> Creating your own RTOS may be a solution but you will eventually > > > face > > > > > >> the same problems. In the long term it may cost you even more > than > > > > > >> just helping us from time to time to make things right. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> goodbye. > > > > > >>> Sebastien > > > > > >> This is your decision Sebastien, and we respect it. Hopefully > you > > > will > > > > > >> reconsider and help up make things good in the process, > hands-on, > > > with > > > > > >> the tools that we have available. You are always welcome back!! > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thank you and take care! > > > > > >> Tomek > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
