Just for my understanding, could I vote -1 for a release that is not
building/working properly for my board?

Alin Jerpelea <jerpe...@gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 29. Jan. 2025, 12:24:

> Hi all,
>
> I started a thread some time ago asking for imput and wishes from all of us
> so that we cans set some goals and create a roadmap
> Unfortunately the mail got little traction....maybe now we can revive it
> and complete a roadmap
>
> Best regards
> Alin
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2025, 12:14 raiden00pl, <raiden0...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I completely agree that project management in NuttX is either lacking or
> > completely non-existent. I think the lack of a generally accepted road
> map
> > for
> > the project is the biggest problem here. TBH we don't even know where
> > the project is headed. Probably if this large number of commits were
> > supported
> > by some kind of roadmap so that it would be known what the goal of these
> > changes is - it would make more sense.
> >
> > In the long run, without coordinated collaboration between teams working
> > separately on NuttX and without a commonly accepted roadmap, I think the
> > project
> > may fail spectacularly.
> >
> > This is where the advantage of BDFL projects comes in. One person has
> > authority over the project and manages it according to his/her vision.
> > Managing a project in a distributed manner is a difficult task,
> > and so far we are not succeeding at it. I think NuttX hasn't correctly
> > transitioned from being managed by Greg (BDFL model) to being managed by
> > distributed management yet. And this is the biggest problem here.
> >
> > And how to fix it? I have no idea, but I don't think limiting the number
> of
> > changes
> > to the project is a solution. Maybe a good first step is to discuss and
> > establish
> > a project roadmap with its contributors and companies that are interested
> > in it.
> > But this requires someone to coordinate the process and preferably has
> > experience
> > in managing distributed open source projects. I don't know if we have
> such
> > a person in our group.
> >
> > śr., 29 sty 2025 o 11:33 Sebastien Lorquet <sebast...@lorquet.fr>
> > napisał(a):
> >
> > > hi
> > >
> > >
> > > On 29/01/2025 10:21, raiden00pl wrote:
> > > > Sebastian, so you're saying that you and your company have the
> > resources
> > > to
> > > > develop
> > > > and maintain your own RTOS, but you lack the resources to help
> maintain
> > > > NuttX (e.g., code review, release testing.)?
> > > > This either doesn't make sense or you just don't want to participate
> in
> > > > this project.
> > >
> > > I dont have resources for a project as large as nuttx, obviously. And I
> > > dont need to.
> > >
> > > it will take some time and it will be much simpler. In fact I have a
> > > project that is almost working for this including a vfs.
> > >
> > > Or I'll find a project that cares about long term support.
> > >
> > >
> > > But for sure, I'll get rid of nuttx, thats enough: every time I update,
> > > everything is broken, the build system is not stable, and what used to
> > > work does not work anymore, including things as simple as the
> > > configure.sh script. it takes ages just to get our code to compile
> again
> > > before I can consider any improvement.
> > >
> > > I dont have energy to spend for such dumb fixes. I'm loosing my time in
> > > a completely useless way.
> > >
> > > I prefer sending more time being productive with the goal of
> controlling
> > > our software stack.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Cherry-picking a single commit to justify your frustration isn’t
> fair.
> > > > Yes, some commits may be poorly described, but we actively try to
> > > improve in
> > > > that regard. With a limited number of contributors, it’s
> understandable
> > > > that our
> > > > reviews aren’t perfect. However, it's worth noting that neither you
> nor
> > > > your company contributed to addressing this issue.
> > >
> > > come on, do you really think it's just one commit? if you cant guess,
> no
> > > it isnt. this was just an example to show that your own policies are
> not
> > > even applied correctly.
> > >
> > > before using ai to review pull requests, just make sure that commit
> > > messages are useful! But you cant, there's too many stuff to check.
> > > that's a huge red flag for me.
> > >
> > > it's an accumulation of problems, for years, with no changes, and it's
> > > getting worse. The more you add auto tool, the more they are
> > > circumvented, because developers know that no one will check.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, I dont want to fix anything in nuttx anymore. it's no use. I'm a
> > > drop in an ocean, just complaining to a community that does not care
> and
> > > just want to code faster than light.
> > >
> > > also, you have several developers pushing hundreds of commit every
> week.
> > > if they wanted to fix anything, they would do it.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > That’s completely fine, everyone has different priorities. What is
> NOT
> > > OK is
> > > > criticizing those who dedicate their time to this project, often
> > > > voluntarily.
> > > > This is one of the biggest problems with open source projects:
> > > > people who give little, demand a lot and complain about others.
> > >
> > > there are different way to dedicate available time.
> > >
> > > My conclusion is that volunteers here are not spending their time
> wisely.
> > >
> > > I have no wish to spend energy for project management. But I can see
> > > that something is wrong here, definitely.
> > >
> > > > BTW, if your product works on earlier NuttX releases, wouldn’t it be
> > > easier
> > > > to stick with a stable release and selectively cherry-pick only the
> > > changes
> > > > that matter to you?
> > >
> > > Tried to do that for tcp keep alive, which is broken in the version I
> > > was using. but the full network stack has completely changed in a few
> > > months. I cant cherry pick and apply anything.
> > >
> > > thats beyond frustration.
> > >
> > > I need a full nuttx upgrade after one year and first thing I need to
> > > understand  is why configure.sh is complaining about sed. wtf???
> > >
> > > so the only way to use nuttx long term is by following the master
> branch
> > > every day?
> > >
> > > that is not going to happen.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It's a pity that you're leaving because I remember that you've been
> in
> > > this
> > > > community for a very long time. Your critical perspective (the
> correct
> > > way
> > > > of
> > > > doing engineering IMO) was really useful and is something that is
> > > > unfortunately
> > > > disappearing in today's world.
> > >
> > > this is sad but my conclusion is I cant change anything in this
> project,
> > > so it's no use banging my head on the wall with no purpose.
> > >
> > > it would be great if my departure would lead to your reconsidering of
> > > this project management and leadership.
> > >
> > > if you looked at the reality, and detected that the amount of commits
> > > coming daily is not a sustainable way to manage project.
> > >
> > > but lets be honest. nothing will happen, right? I've been here for long
> > > enough to be sure of that.
> > >
> > > so I'm out.
> > >
> > > this is good for you: I'll stop complaining.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Take care and good luck.
> > > >
> > > > wt., 28 sty 2025 o 16:19 Tomek CEDRO <to...@cedro.info> napisał(a):
> > > >
> > > >> On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 11:23 AM Sebastien Lorquet <
> > > sebast...@lorquet.fr>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>> my trust in nuttx is now hard to maintain.
> > > >>> Every day a DELUGE of commits (from xiaomi, this is a fact) is
> added
> > to
> > > >>> the repository.
> > > >>> I am struggling to understand what happens in this project.
> > > >>> so many fixes are pushed, how is that even possible? this is a
> > > quicksand
> > > >>> project!
> > > >> Sebastien, I feel your pain. Not necessarily with NuttX as this is
> my
> > > >> "safe island". But with all Open-Source in general. This is the
> result
> > > >> of enforced-changes ideology introduced ~30 years ago by Microsoft
> > > >> that surrounds us even in daily non-computer life. I don't even
> > > >> mention commercial products that get constantly more expensive and
> > > >> clearly have no basic QA process and break ~6 month after purchase.
> I
> > > >> lost trust in big brands long ago.
> > > >>
> > > >>> Also, how are such commits (not from xiaomi!) allowed? No
> description
> > > >>> except "uf2" ? Where is the adult in charge?
> > > >> We do what we can, updated documentation and requirements, added
> > > >> helper bots with feedback, etc, and require sensible descriptions. I
> > > >> even update some PR descriptions by hand. Still it is git log that
> > > >> contains the history true.
> > > >>
> > > >> There is only few people that review the code. If you could help us
> > > >> that would help a lot! You may not use GH for projects just to help
> us
> > > >> in review..
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> I am announcing that after that many years my company has started
> to
> > > >>> develop a minimal rtos to replace our usage of nuttx, because it is
> > > just
> > > >>> not stable enough to be usable for stable long term projects.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> There are too many changes, we are loosing money every time we need
> > an
> > > >>> update. there is no way to maintain the use of a nuttx custom board
> > and
> > > >>> project over several years.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Having control of our code will be a better investment. That will
> > > >>> obviously be closed source. Which is, after all, a better way of
> > > control
> > > >>> on our products.
> > > >> I am facing the same situation for some long years and it gets worse
> > > >> and worse :-( Either use something that is advertised to work
> quickly
> > > >> but then you are tied to constant moving target and maintenance
> > > >> nightmare and if you want to change one simple thing it takes more
> > > >> time than would take me to write everything myself. On the other
> hand
> > > >> it is impossible to write everything on your own. I wrote from
> scratch
> > > >> the LibSWD ~15 years ago to be able to debug.. and it turns out
> today
> > > >> that I can do much more today with a commercial probe :-( All
> previous
> > > >> project made with fancy pancy RTOS and frameworks are now in trash.
> > > >> Solutions like Linux and FreeRTOS also change API every release that
> > > >> causes maintenance nightmare. I use FreeBSD as OS but it also has
> its
> > > >> own problems, more changes are introduced with every release,
> drivers
> > > >> adopted to be compatible by so called "Linux standard" are
> > > >> self-incompatible nightmare.
> > > >>
> > > >> I am working with niche solutions but the changes come constantly
> from
> > > >> other places and that impacts even those niche solutions. You will
> > > >> have the same problem with your own RTOS as I face them in my own
> > > >> projects :-(
> > > >>
> > > >> This comes mainly from enforced changes ideologies that are
> advertised
> > > >> as "innovation" by people with zero old-school coherent simple and
> > > >> effective engineering knowledge.. and maybe from exponential growth
> > > >> that is objectively hard to cope without full time team and that
> > > >> requires funding we have and no one really cases about funding
> > > >> Open-Source just taking the results for free.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> No amount of my involvement in the github triage is going to help,
> > the
> > > >>> case is desperate. I just have no time, no energy, no motivation,
> no
> > > >>> spoons left to deal with this. it's a deluge of commits, let it be,
> > but
> > > >>> without me.
> > > >> Yes, but what was the last time you helped us in review? This is our
> > > >> best-effort and all brainz matter! Help us to make things good. I
> > > >> always valued your constructive criticism on the mailing list.. it
> > > >> would be more than  welcome and appreciated on GH too. But you are
> not
> > > >> on GH so how can you help? I also dont like Microsoft took over
> > > >> GitHub, I also dont like their fake support for Open-Source while
> its
> > > >> clearly an exploitation, I also dont like we need to ask for over 5
> > > >> years for FreeBSD CI runners and it is rejected every time. I also
> use
> > > >> other platforms to host projects, but this is a common place, a
> tool.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> the warning from the apache foundation that you use too many ci
> > credits
> > > >>> should have been a warning to slow down and reflect on the project
> > > >>> direction. nothing has happened except making it even faster.
> > > >> Not really. I would expect support from Apache in tuning stuff,
> maybe
> > > >> adapting resources to scale of the project (tiny projects have the
> > > >> same amount of resources as big projects). We updated and optimized
> > > >> the CI process as a result. We are working on more independent
> > > >> solutions for both code hosting, build automation, and runtime
> > > >> testing. But this is not a weekend work for few people in a free
> time.
> > > >>
> > > >> I agree there is a problem. But we do what we can to fix it. All
> > > >> brainz matter. Help us make things good.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> I will also discourage people to use this project, I cannot in good
> > > >>> conscience recommend it to anyone, it would be a trap.
> > > >> Just as any other Open-Source project nowadays unfortunately. I dont
> > > >> even mention closed source SDKs that change on monthly or weekly
> basis
> > > >> and you have nothing to say just to chase the rabbit. I feel your
> pain
> > > >> because I face the same problems for a long time. There is however a
> > > >> difference in enforcing changes just to make things "modern" or
> adding
> > > >> modern stuff in best-effort incremental way respecting the
> old-school
> > > >> engineering rules that I think we follow here in NuttX. Problems
> > > >> happen everywhere. The problem is what you do with the problem.
> > > >> Creating your own RTOS may be a solution but you will eventually
> face
> > > >> the same problems. In the long term it may cost you even more than
> > > >> just helping us from time to time to make things right.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> goodbye.
> > > >>> Sebastien
> > > >> This is your decision Sebastien, and we respect it. Hopefully you
> will
> > > >> reconsider and help up make things good in the process, hands-on,
> with
> > > >> the tools that we have available. You are always welcome back!!
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you and take care!
> > > >> Tomek
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>

Reply via email to