Hi all, Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as well, that I am admittedly proud of.
We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we do get some noise now and again. Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and things as one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg. So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough. Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability to attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not receive as quickly. A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves as “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack. So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me). Feel free to reach out if you have any questions! - Kyle On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards < austin.caw...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt community[1], > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack has > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community space — > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial > setup/guidelines. > > Cheers, > Austin > > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned) > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum > (I > > like the idea of using GH discussions) > > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > > > > This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive. > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry > >> as Jingsong mentioned. > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > >> > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but > >> complementary. > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what > we > >> are seeking today > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions > >> and interactions. > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list > >> but can't solve the problems > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. > >> > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink > >> and keep this thread focused > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful > >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as > >> their forum. > >> > >> Best, > >> Jark > >> > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <mart...@ververica.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the > best > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to > >>> use > >>> Slack. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Martijn > >>> > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <myas...@live.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Hi all, > >>> > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > However, > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be > >>> > leveraged easily. > >>> > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF > slack > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own > >>> slack > >>> > workspace. > >>> > > >>> > Best > >>> > Yun Tang > >>> > ------------------------------ > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > >>> > *Cc:* dev <dev@flink.apache.org>; user <u...@flink.apache.org> > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > >>> > > >>> > Hi all, > >>> > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache > >>> Druid > >>> > community. [1] > >>> > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new > >>> users > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack > >>> channel. > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the > >>> workspace > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > >>> > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new > >>> > community > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. > Unfortunately, > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new > members, > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with > full > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. > This > >>> lack > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > >>> > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place ( > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can > >>> send an > >>> > email to druid-u...@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the > Slack > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to > >>> entry, > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential > >>> privacy > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid > >>> nor > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. > >>> > > >>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 > >>> > > >>> > Best, > >>> > Jingsong > >>> > > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com > > > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and > >>> then > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there > >>> anything > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more > >>> about > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information > >>> > easier > >>> > > to find. > >>> > > > >>> > > Thank you~ > >>> > > > >>> > > Xintong Song > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf < > kna...@apache.org> > >>> > > wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people > >>> have > >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing > >>> list. > >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up > and > >>> > search > >>> > >> is easier. > >>> > >> > >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none > and > >>> then > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there > >>> anything > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < > >>> > >> tonysong...@gmail.com>: > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting > Help" > >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, > >>> and on > >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with > >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels > and > >>> > keeping > >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding > >>> bots, > >>> > etc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency > >>> when > >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement > >>> would > >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that > >>> perspective, > >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to > >>> Slack. I > >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized > and > >>> > easy to > >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance > overhead. > >>> I'm > >>> > not > >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that > they > >>> are > >>> > not > >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thank you~ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Xintong Song > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf < > >>> kna...@apache.org> > >>> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with > >>> Timo > >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user > >>> community, and > >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I > >>> > definitely see > >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users > are > >>> > >>>> intimidated. > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka > Slack. > >>> This > >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful > >>> > discussion > >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it > is > >>> > easier > >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more > >>> sense > >>> > to > >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and > vibrant > >>> > than a > >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have > >>> the > >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably > self-host > >>> it > >>> > on an > >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1] > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a > >>> dedicated > >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could > >>> have > >>> > more > >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using > >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could > generally > >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink. If we go > for > >>> > Slack, > >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do > >>> this, we > >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack > itself. > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Konstantin > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther < > >>> > >>>> twal...@apache.org>: > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The > Flink > >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful > >>> for > >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk > >>> > channel of > >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It > >>> could > >>> > also > >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently > asked > >>> > questions. > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design > >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should > >>> definitely > >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users > might > >>> not > >>> > want > >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get > >>> their > >>> > mailbox > >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company > >>> > setting it > >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for > mailing > >>> > lists and > >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient. > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find > >>> an > >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right > >>> tool. It > >>> > might > >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The > latter > >>> > would > >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is > >>> > actually > >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums. > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>> > >>>>> Timo > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson: > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> for sharing > the > >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community. > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for > >>> discussions > >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community > can > >>> > reach out > >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will > need a > >>> > paid > >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough > >>> (took me > >>> > about > >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this > route. > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> David > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger < > >>> rmetz...@apache.org> > >>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink > >>> website for > >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1) > >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but > >>> they > >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined. > >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener ( > https://s.apache.org) > >>> > that > >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice > >>> solution, > >>> > but it'll > >>> > >>>>>> work. > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> (1) > >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger < > >>> metrob...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to > the > >>> ASF > >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal: > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel > >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser < > >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of > >>> > Slack, > >>> > >>>>>>>> you can > >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited > by a > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger < > >>> metrob...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the > >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong! > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead > of > >>> > using > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance? > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained > >>> forever, > >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite > >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, > >>> that > >>> > we > >>> > >>>>>>>> could > >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more > effort > >>> > into > >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a > >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for > >>> > >>>>>>>> developer > >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc > >>> chat. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the > "Community" > >>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the > >>> "ground > >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools" > >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but > >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't > respond > >>> to > >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs) > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and > >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining > >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to > >>> find > >>> > some > >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple > indexing > >>> > tool. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of > some > >>> bad > >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of > >>> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced > >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks > >>> to > >>> > >>>>>>>> find that > >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information. > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I > >>> would > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest > >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really > >>> all > >>> > >>>>>>>> important > >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and > that > >>> we > >>> > >>>>>>>> get the > >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience > for > >>> > users > >>> > >>>>>>>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to > >>> > >>>>>>>> developers, > >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing). > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song < > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using > >>> Slack for > >>> > >>>>>>>> dev > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back > >>> to the > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly > >>> specifies > >>> > >>>>>>>> what people > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, > I > >>> > think > >>> > >>>>>>>> that also > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand > a > >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of > >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major > >>> concern > >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from > >>> > >>>>>>>> different users, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching > >>> historical > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the > >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], > >>> but > >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 > >>> arguments. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more > >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers > >>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video > >>> > calls, > >>> > >>>>>>>> etc. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as > >>> David > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.) > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough > >>> attentions on > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably > put > >>> that > >>> > >>>>>>>> into the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search > and > >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink > >>> China > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be > >>> less, > >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What > >>> I'm > >>> > >>>>>>>> really > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between > >>> users & > >>> > >>>>>>>> users than > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, > >>> > sharing > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / > >>> documentations > >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, > if > >>> not > >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way > more > >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the > >>> improvement of > >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being > >>> repeatedly > >>> > >>>>>>>> asked & > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the > >>> benefit > >>> > of a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we > >>> can > >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more > >>> attention > >>> > >>>>>>>> from the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & > >>> David. > >>> > >>>>>>>> I think > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual > exclusive. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~ > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < > >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up > >>> their > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], > >>> etc. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to > >>> communicate > >>> > >>>>>>>> back and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether > >>> there > >>> > >>>>>>>> are > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the > >>> slack, > >>> > to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the > >>> mailing > >>> > >>>>>>>> list and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need > to > >>> > do). > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < > >>> > >>>>>>>> dander...@apache.org> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as > a > >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want > to > >>> do > >>> > it > >>> > >>>>>>>> on a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and > shared. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack > >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the > >>> necessary > >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the > >>> > collective > >>> > >>>>>>>> energy > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow > >>> would > >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users > to > >>> > >>>>>>>> request help > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the > >>> > >>>>>>>> existing > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very > >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure > out > >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are > >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these > >>> > circumstances, > >>> > >>>>>>>> something > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack > >>> > overflow. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < > >>> > >>>>>>>> becket....@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned > in > >>> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> previous > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of > >>> having a > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that > >>> this > >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. > >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine > >>> that > >>> > for > >>> > >>>>>>>> people > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack > >>> channel, a > >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which > >>> leaves > >>> > >>>>>>>> no public > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by > the > >>> > Flink > >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are > >>> good > >>> > >>>>>>>> starting > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. > In > >>> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> worst > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are > >>> right > >>> > >>>>>>>> now. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < > >>> > >>>>>>>> mart...@ververica.com > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the > >>> results > >>> > are > >>> > >>>>>>>> not > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to > >>> Slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> content > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source > space > >>> has > >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable > >>> to > >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache > >>> Airflow > >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active > >>> community. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing > >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. > >>> That can > >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to > >>> > establish > >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < > >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowoj...@apache.org> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the > >>> job. IMO > >>> > >>>>>>>> it works > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, > but > >>> > it's > >>> > >>>>>>>> not > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works > >>> fine, as > >>> > >>>>>>>> long as > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to > >>> JIRA/mailing > >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely > difficult > >>> to > >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the > same > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to > provide a > >>> > link > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack > >>> space/channel > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such > >>> > channels > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for > >>> example, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not > >>> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top) > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it > fit > >>> our > >>> > >>>>>>>> use case > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song < > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a): > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink > >>> slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is > >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly* > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], > >>> which > >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I > >>> also > >>> > >>>>>>>> find a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where > >>> alternative > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite > >>> open > >>> > >>>>>>>> to having > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked > >>> well for > >>> > >>>>>>>> many > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion > >>> again: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change > >>> > during > >>> > >>>>>>>> the past > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4 > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers > >>> and > >>> > PMC > >>> > >>>>>>>> members, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and > >>> timezones. > >>> > >>>>>>>> That also > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the > >>> previous > >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF > >>> workspace, > >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack > >>> workspace. > >>> > And > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving* > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to > add a > >>> > Slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your > >>> previous > >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1]. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If > I > >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service > >>> into > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF > >>> > service. > >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing > lists, > >>> > JIRA > >>> > >>>>>>>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the > >>> slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> channel > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would > >>> much > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1] > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2] > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3] > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4] > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5] > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler > < > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> ches...@apache.org > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML > >>> over > >>> > the > >>> > >>>>>>>> years and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that > would > >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 > on > >>> it. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should > decide > >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting > topic. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition > to > >>> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they > >>> are > >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would > >>> love to > >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source > >>> > >>>>>>>> communities > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and > >>> asking > >>> > >>>>>>>> people for > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for > Q&A > >>> but > >>> > >>>>>>>> also a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the > >>> community > >>> > >>>>>>>> have more > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, > >>> articles, > >>> > and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, > >>> and I > >>> > >>>>>>>> can help > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an > >>> > Apache > >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real > time > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for > real > >>> > time > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for > >>> communication, > >>> > >>>>>>>> especially > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and > more > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it > would > >>> be > >>> > >>>>>>>> good to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. > >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is > >>> maintained > >>> > >>>>>>>> by the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are > >>> less > >>> > >>>>>>>> likely > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, > file > >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, > >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun, > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, > etc.). > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an > >>> extension > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community > >>> members > >>> > >>>>>>>> should > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the > mailing > >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means: > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and > important > >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After > all, > >>> > >>>>>>>> according to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, > it > >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad > >>> hoc > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow > >>> long) > >>> > >>>>>>>> should be > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack > >>> for a > >>> > >>>>>>>> real time > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged > >>> need > >>> > >>>>>>>> to be > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication > >>> easier > >>> > >>>>>>>> only when > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that > >>> people > >>> > >>>>>>>> should not > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to > >>> search > >>> > >>>>>>>> among them. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this > >>> problem[1]. As > >>> > >>>>>>>> a first > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting > things > >>> back > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly > >>> reflected > >>> > >>>>>>>> back to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability > >>> and > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source > >>> projects > >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not) > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow > >>> [2], > >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3], > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4] > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache > Flink, > >>> we > >>> > >>>>>>>> would need > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But > >>> before > >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] > >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4] > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> -- > >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable > >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> -- > >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable > >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >> >
