Hi all, Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt community[1], which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack has become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community space — given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial setup/guidelines.
Cheers, Austin [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> wrote: > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned) > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion forum (I > like the idea of using GH discussions) > > Besides, we still need to investigate how >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > This is the code used by airflow: https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive. > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to entry >> as Jingsong mentioned. >> Besides, we still need to investigate how >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. >> >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but >> complementary. >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But what we >> are seeking today >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc questions >> and interactions. >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing list >> but can't solve the problems >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. >> >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for Flink >> and keep this thread focused >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub Discussion as >> their forum. >> >> Best, >> Jark >> >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions >> >> >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <mart...@ververica.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide the best >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how to >>> use >>> Slack. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Martijn >>> >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <myas...@live.com> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be >>> > leveraged easily. >>> > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own >>> slack >>> > workspace. >>> > >>> > Best >>> > Yun Tang >>> > ------------------------------ >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >>> > *Cc:* dev <dev@flink.apache.org>; user <u...@flink.apache.org> >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace >>> > >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache >>> Druid >>> > community. [1] >>> > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new >>> users >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack >>> channel. >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the >>> workspace >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. >>> > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new >>> > community >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members, >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This >>> lack >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. >>> > >>> > > There is a workaround in place ( >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can >>> send an >>> > email to druid-u...@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to >>> entry, >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential >>> privacy >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid >>> nor >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. >>> > >>> > [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Jingsong >>> > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and >>> then >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there >>> anything >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more >>> about >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making information >>> > easier >>> > > to find. >>> > > >>> > > Thank you~ >>> > > >>> > > Xintong Song >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people >>> have >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. >>> > >> >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing >>> list. >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and >>> > search >>> > >> is easier. >>> > >> >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and >>> then >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there >>> anything >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < >>> > >> tonysong...@gmail.com>: >>> > >> >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, >>> and on >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and >>> > keeping >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding >>> bots, >>> > etc. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency >>> when >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement >>> would >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that >>> perspective, >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to >>> Slack. I >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and >>> > easy to >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. >>> I'm >>> > not >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they >>> are >>> > not >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Thank you~ >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Xintong Song >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/ >>> > >>> >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf < >>> kna...@apache.org> >>> > >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with >>> Timo >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user >>> community, and >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I >>> > definitely see >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are >>> > >>>> intimidated. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. >>> This >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful >>> > discussion >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is >>> > easier >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more >>> sense >>> > to >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant >>> > than a >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have >>> the >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host >>> it >>> > on an >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1] >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a >>> dedicated >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could >>> have >>> > more >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink. If we go for >>> > Slack, >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do >>> this, we >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Cheers, >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Konstantin >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther < >>> > >>>> twal...@apache.org>: >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful >>> for >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk >>> > channel of >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It >>> could >>> > also >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked >>> > questions. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should >>> definitely >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might >>> not >>> > want >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get >>> their >>> > mailbox >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company >>> > setting it >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing >>> > lists and >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find >>> an >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right >>> tool. It >>> > might >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter >>> > would >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is >>> > actually >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> Regards, >>> > >>>>> Timo >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson: >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> for sharing the >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for >>> discussions >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can >>> > reach out >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a >>> > paid >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough >>> (took me >>> > about >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> David >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger < >>> rmetz...@apache.org> >>> > >>>>> wrote: >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink >>> website for >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1) >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but >>> they >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined. >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) >>> > that >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice >>> solution, >>> > but it'll >>> > >>>>>> work. >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> (1) >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger < >>> metrob...@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the >>> ASF >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal: >>> > >>>>>>> >>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser < >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of >>> > Slack, >>> > >>>>>>>> you can >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger < >>> metrob...@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong! >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of >>> > using >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance? >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained >>> forever, >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, >>> that >>> > we >>> > >>>>>>>> could >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort >>> > into >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis. >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for >>> > >>>>>>>> developer >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc >>> chat. >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" >>> and >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the >>> "ground >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools" >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond >>> to >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs) >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable. >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to >>> find >>> > some >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing >>> > tool. >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some >>> bad >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of >>> the >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks >>> to >>> > >>>>>>>> find that >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information. >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I >>> would >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really >>> all >>> > >>>>>>>> important >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that >>> we >>> > >>>>>>>> get the >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for >>> > users >>> > >>>>>>>> and >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to >>> > >>>>>>>> developers, >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing). >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song < >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using >>> Slack for >>> > >>>>>>>> dev >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back >>> to the >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly >>> specifies >>> > >>>>>>>> what people >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I >>> > think >>> > >>>>>>>> that also >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major >>> concern >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from >>> > >>>>>>>> different users, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching >>> historical >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], >>> but >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 >>> arguments. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers >>> and >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video >>> > calls, >>> > >>>>>>>> etc. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as >>> David >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.) >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough >>> attentions on >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put >>> that >>> > >>>>>>>> into the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink >>> China >>> > >>>>>>>> community. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be >>> less, >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What >>> I'm >>> > >>>>>>>> really >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between >>> users & >>> > >>>>>>>> users than >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, >>> > sharing >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / >>> documentations >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if >>> not >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the >>> improvement of >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being >>> repeatedly >>> > >>>>>>>> asked & >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the >>> benefit >>> > of a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we >>> can >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more >>> attention >>> > >>>>>>>> from the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & >>> David. >>> > >>>>>>>> I think >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~ >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up >>> their >>> > >>>>>>>> slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], >>> etc. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to >>> communicate >>> > >>>>>>>> back and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether >>> there >>> > >>>>>>>> are >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the >>> slack, >>> > to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the >>> mailing >>> > >>>>>>>> list and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to >>> > do). >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < >>> > >>>>>>>> dander...@apache.org> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to >>> do >>> > it >>> > >>>>>>>> on a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the >>> necessary >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the >>> > collective >>> > >>>>>>>> energy >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow >>> would >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to >>> > >>>>>>>> request help >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the >>> > >>>>>>>> existing >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these >>> > circumstances, >>> > >>>>>>>> something >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack >>> > overflow. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < >>> > >>>>>>>> becket....@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in >>> the >>> > >>>>>>>> previous >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of >>> having a >>> > >>>>>>>> slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that >>> this >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine >>> that >>> > for >>> > >>>>>>>> people >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack >>> channel, a >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which >>> leaves >>> > >>>>>>>> no public >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the >>> > Flink >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are >>> good >>> > >>>>>>>> starting >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In >>> the >>> > >>>>>>>> worst >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are >>> right >>> > >>>>>>>> now. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < >>> > >>>>>>>> mart...@ververica.com >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the >>> results >>> > are >>> > >>>>>>>> not >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to >>> Slack >>> > >>>>>>>> content >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space >>> has >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable >>> to >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache >>> Airflow >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active >>> community. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. >>> That can >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to >>> > establish >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowoj...@apache.org> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the >>> job. IMO >>> > >>>>>>>> it works >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but >>> > it's >>> > >>>>>>>> not >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works >>> fine, as >>> > >>>>>>>> long as >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to >>> JIRA/mailing >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult >>> to >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a >>> > link >>> > >>>>>>>> to the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack >>> space/channel >>> > >>>>>>>> for the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such >>> > channels >>> > >>>>>>>> for the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for >>> example, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not >>> the >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top) >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit >>> our >>> > >>>>>>>> use case >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song < >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a): >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink >>> slack >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly* >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], >>> which >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I >>> also >>> > >>>>>>>> find a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where >>> alternative >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite >>> open >>> > >>>>>>>> to having >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked >>> well for >>> > >>>>>>>> many >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion >>> again: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change >>> > during >>> > >>>>>>>> the past >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4 >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers >>> and >>> > PMC >>> > >>>>>>>> members, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and >>> timezones. >>> > >>>>>>>> That also >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the >>> previous >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF >>> workspace, >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack >>> workspace. >>> > And >>> > >>>>>>>> instead >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving* >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a >>> > Slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your >>> previous >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1]. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service >>> into >>> > >>>>>>>> rather >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF >>> > service. >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, >>> > JIRA >>> > >>>>>>>> and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the >>> slack >>> > >>>>>>>> channel >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would >>> much >>> > >>>>>>>> rather >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1] >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2] >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3] >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4] >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5] >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler < >>> > >>>>>>>> >> ches...@apache.org >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML >>> over >>> > the >>> > >>>>>>>> years and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on >>> it. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to >>> the >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they >>> are >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would >>> love to >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source >>> > >>>>>>>> communities >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and >>> asking >>> > >>>>>>>> people for >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A >>> but >>> > >>>>>>>> also a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the >>> community >>> > >>>>>>>> have more >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, >>> articles, >>> > and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, >>> and I >>> > >>>>>>>> can help >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an >>> > Apache >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time >>> > >>>>>>>> communication >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real >>> > time >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for >>> communication, >>> > >>>>>>>> especially >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would >>> be >>> > >>>>>>>> good to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is >>> maintained >>> > >>>>>>>> by the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are >>> less >>> > >>>>>>>> likely >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun, >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an >>> extension >>> > >>>>>>>> rather >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community >>> members >>> > >>>>>>>> should >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means: >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, >>> > >>>>>>>> according to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad >>> hoc >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow >>> long) >>> > >>>>>>>> should be >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack >>> for a >>> > >>>>>>>> real time >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged >>> need >>> > >>>>>>>> to be >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication >>> easier >>> > >>>>>>>> only when >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that >>> people >>> > >>>>>>>> should not >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to >>> search >>> > >>>>>>>> among them. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this >>> problem[1]. As >>> > >>>>>>>> a first >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things >>> back >>> > >>>>>>>> to the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly >>> reflected >>> > >>>>>>>> back to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability >>> and >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source >>> projects >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not) >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow >>> [2], >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3], >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4] >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, >>> we >>> > >>>>>>>> would need >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But >>> before >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4] >>> > >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> >>> > >>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> -- >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk >>> > >>>> >>> > >>> >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > >>> >>
