I'm also not a fun of discussing FLIPs with google docs.
I think google docs is probably ok for smaller scope early discussions
before raising the discussion on the mailing list, when the draft is not
completed and is expected to change frequently. Once it is proposed to the
community, as many people already mentioned, google doc changes are very
hard to track.
If I understand correctly, what Jincheng suggested is to use google doc but
not allowing discussions and modifications on it, except for minor issues.
Regarding that, my concerns are:
- How do we define "minor issues"? Are these typo and grammar issues only?
- If so, I think it is the proposer's responsibility to provide
well-written docs with less such mistakes, if not none. Most editors
provide helpful spelling and grammar checks.
- If not, then people may have different opinions on whether a comment is
minor or not.
Another advantage for the wiki page is that, once you watch it you can
always get email notifications on modifications to that page. AFAIK, for
google doc you get notifications only if someone replies your comments,
unless you're the owner of the doc.
Thank you~
Xintong Song
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 12:57 PM jincheng sun <sunjincheng...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for bring up the discussion @Hequn!
>
> I agree with some concerns raised above, however, I would like to give my
> +1 for the proposal and I would like to share my thoughts:
>
> If I understand correctly, the proposal doesn’t encourage people to discuss
> in the google doc, the first step of the proposal is to raise the
> discussion on the mailing list.
>
> It’s common sense to discuss on the mailing list even with a google doc.
> This is also the current status and works well. Most people know that we
> should focus the discussion on the mailing list especially for those about
> architecture or something pretty important for discussing which is what we
> want to left the history.
>
> I believe the google doc brings more benefits for us than costs. The
> problem is how we use it, not eliminate it. There are still some benefits
> that we can get from it. For example, It is a good place to comment on the
> document for some minor problems, e.g., typos or grammatical problems.
> Correcting these problems could help us to achieve a high-quality document.
> It is also unnecessarily to left history for these kinds of problems. If we
> put all these comments into the mailing list. The mailing list would be
> flooded. Meanwhile, it’s hard to comment on these problems on the mailing
> list if the document is very long.
>
> As for the FLIP process, it’s a good idea to make our wiki “immutable” so
> that we can make the wiki management better, i.e., only editable by PMC or
> committer(This can be discussed in another thread).
>
> What do you think? Would be great if more people can share thoughts here!
>
> Best,
> Jincheng
>
>
> Yuan Mei <yuanmei.w...@gmail.com> 于2020年2月19日周三 下午12:41写道：
>
> > It is difficult to draw a clear cut between small and big issues. Hence I
> > would prefer to stick to only one way for discussion.
> >
> > I would try to avoid Google Docs if having other ways mainly because of
> two
> > reasons:
> >
> > 1. Google Docs are not always accessible to everyone.
> >
> > 2. Discussion on Google docs is difficult to track
> > - new comments are notified through email
> > - discussion history is hard to follow once a comment is resolved
> > - limited spaces on the page to display e.t.c
> >
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Yuan
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all, thanks for launching this discussion.
> > >
> > > About eliminating Google Docs. I agree with Zhijiang, I share my
> concern
> > > about it.
> > >
> > > If the FLIP Driver is a Flink newer or the FLIP is very big and
> > > complicated. His/Her design maybe need change many many things, in this
> > > situation, Google doc is good to be reviewed by community. If all
> > > discussions are in ML, It's going to be very messy.
> > >
> > > So I think can keep this principle:
> > > - Small issues can be discussed on Google doc.
> > > - Big issues, or fundamental design issues, or API issues, are
> discussed
> > in
> > > ML.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jingsong Lee
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:22 AM Zhijiang <wangzhijiang...@aliyun.com
> > > .invalid>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for launching this discussion and also agree with the opinions
> > of
> > > > Kostas, Timo and Aljoscha.
> > > >
> > > > The proposed reasons for eliminating google doc are very reasonable,
> > > > especially the access limitation for some people in China.
> > > >
> > > > Besides that, another conservative option is to make google doc as an
> > > > optional procedure, not a must procedure in practice, and
> > > > the ML discussion is still the formal must procedure to follow
> firstly.
> > > > And we can also kindly list these specific considerations/reasons
> > > > for google doc concerns as said below in the guideline doc.
> > > >
> > > > To do so, we still retain this option for some people who prefer to
> > > google
> > > > doc or willing to provide it in some corner cases.
> > > > Of course I am also happy to eliminate google doc completely.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Zhijiang
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > From:Kostas Kloudas <kklou...@gmail.com>
> > > > Send Time:2020 Feb. 18 (Tue.) 23:03
> > > > To:dev <dev@flink.apache.org>
> > > > Subject:Re: [DISCUSS] Improvements on FLIP Process
> > > >
> > > > +1 to what Aljoscha and Timo are proposing.
> > > >
> > > > I would lean towards eliminating Google Docs altogether.
> > > > I think they served a purpose when discussions were among 3 to 4
> > > > people but with the current size of the community and the amount of
> > > > participants per discussion they become difficult to follow.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Kostas
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 to what Aljoscha said.
> > > > >
> > > > > The past has shown that discussions in Google docs do not reach all
> > > > > interested parties and the tracability of design decisions becomes
> > > > > difficult. Google services are also partially inaccessible in
> certain
> > > > > parts of world.
> > > > >
> > > > > We should actually do the opposite and not allow Google docs as
> FLIPs
> > > > > anymore. Commenting should be disabled by default.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Timo
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 18.02.20 15:20, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanks for starting this discussion!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, I have a somewhat opposing opinion to this: we should
> > > disallow
> > > > > > using Google Docs for FLIPs and FLIP discussions and follow the
> > > already
> > > > > > established process more strictly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My reasons for this are:
> > > > > > - discussions on the Google Doc are not reflected in Apache
> > > > > > infrastructure
> > > > > > - discussions on Google Docs are non-linear and hard to follow
> > > > > > - when discussions on Google Docs are resolved these
> discussions
> > > are
> > > > > > not visible/re-readable anymore (I know there's history, but meh)
> > > > > > - if discussion is kept purely to the ML this is easily
> > observable
> > > > for
> > > > > > any interested parties and it's there if somewhat want's to
> recheck
> > > the
> > > > > > discussion in the future
> > > > > > - going from Google Doc to Wiki is an extra step that seems
> > > > > > unnecessary to me (but that's just personal opinion, I mean, I
> > don't
> > > > > > have to do the extra work here...)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 18.02.20 09:02, Hequn Cheng wrote:
> > > > > >> Hi everyone,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Currently, when we create a FLIP we follow the FLIP process in
> the
> > > > Flink
> > > > > >> Improvement Proposals wiki[1]. The process mainly includes the
> > > > following
> > > > > >> steps:
> > > > > >> 1. Create a FLIP wiki page.
> > > > > >> 2. Raise the discussion on the mailing list.
> > > > > >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the
> > proposal
> > > > > >> adopted.
> > > > > >> There is also a discussion[2] on the FLIP process which may be
> > > helpful
> > > > > >> for
> > > > > >> you.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As it is not allowed commented on the wiki, we usually have a
> > google
> > > > doc
> > > > > >> for the discussion at step 2 and whenever there is a change we
> > need
> > > to
> > > > > >> pick
> > > > > >> it to the wiki page. This makes things somehow redundant. To
> solve
> > > > > >> this, we
> > > > > >> can rearrange the step a little bit and avoid the pick:
> > > > > >> 1. Raise the discussion on the mailing list. The subject of the
> > > > thread is
> > > > > >> of the format [DISCUSS][FLIP] {your FLIP heading}. Also, the
> > design
> > > > doc
> > > > > >> should follow the FLIP-Template strictly. (The [FLIP] tag is
> used
> > to
> > > > > >> inform
> > > > > >> people that it is a FLIP discussion and more attention should be
> > > > paid.)
> > > > > >> 2. Create a FLIP wiki page once we reached an agreement on the
> > > > > >> discussion.
> > > > > >> We can simply copy the google doc into the FLIP wiki page.
> > > > > >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the
> > proposal
> > > > > >> adopted. It should be noted that we should always vote on a FLIP
> > > wiki
> > > > > >> page
> > > > > >> instead of a google doc. The wiki page is the final version of
> the
> > > > google
> > > > > >> doc.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> This can bring some benefits:
> > > > > >> 1. Make the discussion more effective as we force people to
> write
> > > and
> > > > > >> discuss on a google doc that follows the FLIP template which
> > > > > >> includes necessary information such as Motivation, Interfaces,
> > > > Proposed
> > > > > >> changes, etc.
> > > > > >> 2. Avoid redundant pick from google doc to Flink wiki page. Once
> > we
> > > > > >> reached
> > > > > >> an agreement on the discussion, we can simply copy the google
> doc
> > > into
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> FLIP wiki page.
> > > > > >> 3. As adopted FLIP should mostly be "immutable", we can even
> make
> > > the
> > > > > >> wiki
> > > > > >> page PMC or committer editable since it just needs a simple copy
> > > from
> > > > the
> > > > > >> google doc.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Looking forward to your feedback!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Best,
> > > > > >> Hequn
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> [1]
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Flink+Improvement+Proposals
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> [2]
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-flink-mailing-list-archive.1008284.n3.nabble.com/DISCUSS-META-FLIP-Sticking-or-not-to-a-strict-FLIP-voting-process-td29978.html#a29988
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best, Jingsong Lee
> > >
> >
>
