It is difficult to draw a clear cut between small and big issues. Hence I
would prefer to stick to only one way for discussion.
I would try to avoid Google Docs if having other ways mainly because of two
reasons:
1. Google Docs are not always accessible to everyone.
2. Discussion on Google docs is difficult to track
- new comments are notified through email
- discussion history is hard to follow once a comment is resolved
- limited spaces on the page to display e.t.c
Best
Yuan
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all, thanks for launching this discussion.
>
> About eliminating Google Docs. I agree with Zhijiang, I share my concern
> about it.
>
> If the FLIP Driver is a Flink newer or the FLIP is very big and
> complicated. His/Her design maybe need change many many things, in this
> situation, Google doc is good to be reviewed by community. If all
> discussions are in ML, It's going to be very messy.
>
> So I think can keep this principle:
> - Small issues can be discussed on Google doc.
> - Big issues, or fundamental design issues, or API issues, are discussed in
> ML.
>
> Best,
> Jingsong Lee
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:22 AM Zhijiang <wangzhijiang...@aliyun.com
> .invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for launching this discussion and also agree with the opinions of
> > Kostas, Timo and Aljoscha.
> >
> > The proposed reasons for eliminating google doc are very reasonable,
> > especially the access limitation for some people in China.
> >
> > Besides that, another conservative option is to make google doc as an
> > optional procedure, not a must procedure in practice, and
> > the ML discussion is still the formal must procedure to follow firstly.
> > And we can also kindly list these specific considerations/reasons
> > for google doc concerns as said below in the guideline doc.
> >
> > To do so, we still retain this option for some people who prefer to
> google
> > doc or willing to provide it in some corner cases.
> > Of course I am also happy to eliminate google doc completely.
> >
> > Best,
> > Zhijiang
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > From:Kostas Kloudas <kklou...@gmail.com>
> > Send Time:2020 Feb. 18 (Tue.) 23:03
> > To:dev <dev@flink.apache.org>
> > Subject:Re: [DISCUSS] Improvements on FLIP Process
> >
> > +1 to what Aljoscha and Timo are proposing.
> >
> > I would lean towards eliminating Google Docs altogether.
> > I think they served a purpose when discussions were among 3 to 4
> > people but with the current size of the community and the amount of
> > participants per discussion they become difficult to follow.
> >
> > Best,
> > Kostas
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:36 PM Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > +1 to what Aljoscha said.
> > >
> > > The past has shown that discussions in Google docs do not reach all
> > > interested parties and the tracability of design decisions becomes
> > > difficult. Google services are also partially inaccessible in certain
> > > parts of world.
> > >
> > > We should actually do the opposite and not allow Google docs as FLIPs
> > > anymore. Commenting should be disabled by default.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Timo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 18.02.20 15:20, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > thanks for starting this discussion!
> > > >
> > > > However, I have a somewhat opposing opinion to this: we should
> disallow
> > > > using Google Docs for FLIPs and FLIP discussions and follow the
> already
> > > > established process more strictly.
> > > >
> > > > My reasons for this are:
> > > > - discussions on the Google Doc are not reflected in Apache
> > > > infrastructure
> > > > - discussions on Google Docs are non-linear and hard to follow
> > > > - when discussions on Google Docs are resolved these discussions
> are
> > > > not visible/re-readable anymore (I know there's history, but meh)
> > > > - if discussion is kept purely to the ML this is easily observable
> > for
> > > > any interested parties and it's there if somewhat want's to recheck
> the
> > > > discussion in the future
> > > > - going from Google Doc to Wiki is an extra step that seems
> > > > unnecessary to me (but that's just personal opinion, I mean, I don't
> > > > have to do the extra work here...)
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Aljoscha
> > > >
> > > > On 18.02.20 09:02, Hequn Cheng wrote:
> > > >> Hi everyone,
> > > >>
> > > >> Currently, when we create a FLIP we follow the FLIP process in the
> > Flink
> > > >> Improvement Proposals wiki[1]. The process mainly includes the
> > following
> > > >> steps:
> > > >> 1. Create a FLIP wiki page.
> > > >> 2. Raise the discussion on the mailing list.
> > > >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the proposal
> > > >> adopted.
> > > >> There is also a discussion[2] on the FLIP process which may be
> helpful
> > > >> for
> > > >> you.
> > > >>
> > > >> As it is not allowed commented on the wiki, we usually have a google
> > doc
> > > >> for the discussion at step 2 and whenever there is a change we need
> to
> > > >> pick
> > > >> it to the wiki page. This makes things somehow redundant. To solve
> > > >> this, we
> > > >> can rearrange the step a little bit and avoid the pick:
> > > >> 1. Raise the discussion on the mailing list. The subject of the
> > thread is
> > > >> of the format [DISCUSS][FLIP] {your FLIP heading}. Also, the design
> > doc
> > > >> should follow the FLIP-Template strictly. (The [FLIP] tag is used to
> > > >> inform
> > > >> people that it is a FLIP discussion and more attention should be
> > paid.)
> > > >> 2. Create a FLIP wiki page once we reached an agreement on the
> > > >> discussion.
> > > >> We can simply copy the google doc into the FLIP wiki page.
> > > >> 3. Once the proposal is finalized, call a vote to have the proposal
> > > >> adopted. It should be noted that we should always vote on a FLIP
> wiki
> > > >> page
> > > >> instead of a google doc. The wiki page is the final version of the
> > google
> > > >> doc.
> > > >>
> > > >> This can bring some benefits:
> > > >> 1. Make the discussion more effective as we force people to write
> and
> > > >> discuss on a google doc that follows the FLIP template which
> > > >> includes necessary information such as Motivation, Interfaces,
> > Proposed
> > > >> changes, etc.
> > > >> 2. Avoid redundant pick from google doc to Flink wiki page. Once we
> > > >> reached
> > > >> an agreement on the discussion, we can simply copy the google doc
> into
> > > >> the
> > > >> FLIP wiki page.
> > > >> 3. As adopted FLIP should mostly be "immutable", we can even make
> the
> > > >> wiki
> > > >> page PMC or committer editable since it just needs a simple copy
> from
> > the
> > > >> google doc.
> > > >>
> > > >> Looking forward to your feedback!
> > > >>
> > > >> Best,
> > > >> Hequn
> > > >>
> > > >> [1]
> > > >>
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/Flink+Improvement+Proposals
> > > >>
> > > >> [2]
> > > >>
> >
> http://apache-flink-mailing-list-archive.1008284.n3.nabble.com/DISCUSS-META-FLIP-Sticking-or-not-to-a-strict-FLIP-voting-process-td29978.html#a29988
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Best, Jingsong Lee
>
