Alex, Thanks for the info on email subjects. Will also keep that in mind (I too replied to the original thread). Just wanted to drop a note here letting ya know I caught this one too :)
Chris On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com> wrote: > Hi Mihai, > > I didn't want our lack of response to imply to you that, as a new > committer, your thoughts are not welcome. They are, and I suspect most of > us do not have any disagreement with the basic principles of your message. > > First, I want to share some information I've learned about Apache. This > is still a relatively young project, and it is my first open-source > project. > > 1) Sometimes, an email thread's subject matter changes enough that it > should have a different subject. The convention at Apache for doing that > is what I did above: Use a new subject and add (was: <old subject>), > although I truncated the old subject in this case because I feel it is too > inflammatory (and incorrect). > > 2) Every project has at least one public mailing list like this one, and a > private mailing list that the PMC uses to discuss things like whether a > candidate for committer should be approved or not. > > 3) There is no objective standard at Apache for whether someone should get > approved. And since it is subjective, there can be disagreements. > > 4) Projects start out as "podlings" in the incubator that are guided by > mentors who have been at Apache for a while. They provide guidance on > recommended ways for an open source community to make progress. The > mentors fade away over time as the project becomes a official project. > > For sure, we don't want to silence anyone permanently, but in this case > you only saw a fraction of the total discussion. Several lengthy > discussions were properly held on the private list, and in each case, > Justin was the lone person supporting a particular position. The rest of > the PMC seems to agree with me that Justin has had ample time to make his > case, and we are not convinced, and therefore it is time to end the > discussion, agree to disagree, and move on. > > Now there have been many times in history where the lone supporter turned > out to be right, so if you still feel that we are being unfair to Justin, > I will ask our former mentors to review some of the email threads and > offer their thoughts, which they may do on the private list. I may do so > anyway. > > Thanks, > -Alex > > On 8/25/14 4:20 PM, "Mihai Chira" <mihai.ch...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >So far I worked in 7 different closed-source (and 'closed' in many > >other ways) companies. There I've seen just how much backlash there > >can be when someone speaks up about what's not working. Over time > >people learn to stay silent. It saddens me to see this happening in an > >open-source project. I think as a community we could do a better job > >of appreciating those who reflect on what we do and find ways we can > >improve, even if we don't agree with their assessment. > > > >In that vein, I think Justin is doing a great job speaking out, > >despite the frequently dismissive and negative replies to his views. > > > >A community is defined not only by what it does, but also by how it > >does it. I share the interest in the processes we adopt, what they > >imply and what they say about us. > > > >I agree that it would probably have been beneficial if the Radii8 code > >donation happened on the dev mailing list. We would have all seen 1) > >that donations to apache flex are possible (I didn't know, or hadn't > >realised that before), and 2) what work they imply. Plus, they would > >have helped make visible this otherwise hidden work that the PMC > >members and donors do for the project. That's very important for > >recognition of contributions and, thus, for community building. So I > >think we should do it next time there's a donation. > >(And when the details of the donation process become uninteresting we > >can simply stop following that conversation thread, just like any > >other.) > > > >However, in terms of the importance of the problems outlined by Justin > >I think the last one is crucial. It definitely relates to the health > >of the community for more members to take responsibilities and help > >spread the workload and knowledge rather than having it concentrated > >in a small number of (thus precious) members. It's just as relevant > >for open-source projects to have a small Bus factor[1]. > >And I don't know when, how, or even if this happened, but if other > >contributions than code are not valued, this certainly reduces the > >likelihood that some people will spend time on the project. > > > >The current situation is that we are faced with a member of the > >community (Justin) considering to step down because he does not think > >we are doing some things right. As a result, he has provoked a > >discussion on those things, which I think is great. I suggest we > >should (as some have) talk about them and define for ourselves, as a > >community, whether we want to do things differently or not, instead of > >being defensive by accusing him of "lashing out" or blackmailing us > >into doing things "his way". The point, for me, is to figure out how > >we move forward, as opposed to placing blame for what happened in the > >past. And if Justin then steps down because he doesn't agree with our > >way, it's perfectly fine. But if he steps down also because of the > >hostility against him, we're doing something wrong. > > > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor > > > >On 22 Aug 2014 00:41, "Justin Mclean" <jus...@classsoftware.com> wrote: > > > >Hi, > > > >> If I have a vision or idea for something and go ahead and build it > >>[and/or try to donate it]; > >That is certainly one valid path to take, but it then it may need to > >go through a software grant and IP clearance. That's a cost you may > >need to incur if you want to bring software to Apache in that manner. > > > >> Presumably, discussion can be had at the time of donation or sharing. > >Yep that should be the process. > > > >Thanks, > >Justin > >
