Hi Mihai, I didn't want our lack of response to imply to you that, as a new committer, your thoughts are not welcome. They are, and I suspect most of us do not have any disagreement with the basic principles of your message.
First, I want to share some information I've learned about Apache. This is still a relatively young project, and it is my first open-source project. 1) Sometimes, an email thread's subject matter changes enough that it should have a different subject. The convention at Apache for doing that is what I did above: Use a new subject and add (was: <old subject>), although I truncated the old subject in this case because I feel it is too inflammatory (and incorrect). 2) Every project has at least one public mailing list like this one, and a private mailing list that the PMC uses to discuss things like whether a candidate for committer should be approved or not. 3) There is no objective standard at Apache for whether someone should get approved. And since it is subjective, there can be disagreements. 4) Projects start out as "podlings" in the incubator that are guided by mentors who have been at Apache for a while. They provide guidance on recommended ways for an open source community to make progress. The mentors fade away over time as the project becomes a official project. For sure, we don't want to silence anyone permanently, but in this case you only saw a fraction of the total discussion. Several lengthy discussions were properly held on the private list, and in each case, Justin was the lone person supporting a particular position. The rest of the PMC seems to agree with me that Justin has had ample time to make his case, and we are not convinced, and therefore it is time to end the discussion, agree to disagree, and move on. Now there have been many times in history where the lone supporter turned out to be right, so if you still feel that we are being unfair to Justin, I will ask our former mentors to review some of the email threads and offer their thoughts, which they may do on the private list. I may do so anyway. Thanks, -Alex On 8/25/14 4:20 PM, "Mihai Chira" <mihai.ch...@gmail.com> wrote: >So far I worked in 7 different closed-source (and 'closed' in many >other ways) companies. There I've seen just how much backlash there >can be when someone speaks up about what's not working. Over time >people learn to stay silent. It saddens me to see this happening in an >open-source project. I think as a community we could do a better job >of appreciating those who reflect on what we do and find ways we can >improve, even if we don't agree with their assessment. > >In that vein, I think Justin is doing a great job speaking out, >despite the frequently dismissive and negative replies to his views. > >A community is defined not only by what it does, but also by how it >does it. I share the interest in the processes we adopt, what they >imply and what they say about us. > >I agree that it would probably have been beneficial if the Radii8 code >donation happened on the dev mailing list. We would have all seen 1) >that donations to apache flex are possible (I didn't know, or hadn't >realised that before), and 2) what work they imply. Plus, they would >have helped make visible this otherwise hidden work that the PMC >members and donors do for the project. That's very important for >recognition of contributions and, thus, for community building. So I >think we should do it next time there's a donation. >(And when the details of the donation process become uninteresting we >can simply stop following that conversation thread, just like any >other.) > >However, in terms of the importance of the problems outlined by Justin >I think the last one is crucial. It definitely relates to the health >of the community for more members to take responsibilities and help >spread the workload and knowledge rather than having it concentrated >in a small number of (thus precious) members. It's just as relevant >for open-source projects to have a small Bus factor[1]. >And I don't know when, how, or even if this happened, but if other >contributions than code are not valued, this certainly reduces the >likelihood that some people will spend time on the project. > >The current situation is that we are faced with a member of the >community (Justin) considering to step down because he does not think >we are doing some things right. As a result, he has provoked a >discussion on those things, which I think is great. I suggest we >should (as some have) talk about them and define for ourselves, as a >community, whether we want to do things differently or not, instead of >being defensive by accusing him of "lashing out" or blackmailing us >into doing things "his way". The point, for me, is to figure out how >we move forward, as opposed to placing blame for what happened in the >past. And if Justin then steps down because he doesn't agree with our >way, it's perfectly fine. But if he steps down also because of the >hostility against him, we're doing something wrong. > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor > >On 22 Aug 2014 00:41, "Justin Mclean" <jus...@classsoftware.com> wrote: > >Hi, > >> If I have a vision or idea for something and go ahead and build it >>[and/or try to donate it]; >That is certainly one valid path to take, but it then it may need to >go through a software grant and IP clearance. That's a cost you may >need to incur if you want to bring software to Apache in that manner. > >> Presumably, discussion can be had at the time of donation or sharing. >Yep that should be the process. > >Thanks, >Justin
