If we want to have everything recorded in one place, then we need to put up some roadblocks to PRs, the Wiki, and Jira like ... what? Have a PR, wiki, and Jira template/gate that says... you must discuss your issue/bug/feature first on the mailing list? It does not feel workable.
I don't think this is about people being dinosaurs, it's just the technology and processes that are changing. I really like working with GitHub PRs and GitHub CI builds. I don't want to go back to emails only just like don't ever want to use an IRC thing. Some people don't want to create a GitHub account, so it's Jira and diff files for them, but that's rare. BUT it gives us a LOT MORE work to validate a patch compared to GitHub CI where it can use many OSs and Java version while I'm sleeping :-) Gary On Sat, Jun 15, 2024, 2:00 PM Phil Steitz <phil.ste...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 10:19 AM Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Note that it is 1) awkward to say "Let's stop talking about this PR in > > this PR" > > > Funny we used to do that all the time in Jira comments. I guess times > change. FWIW, I think it is a step backward in discussion and ultimately > code and archive quality. To me it is "awkward" to have to be constantly > @somebody and not have threads or definitive discussion anywhere. Works > fine for trivial changes but does not really work for substantive > discussion of bigger things. So we end up never actually having those > discussions and there is no reasonably searchable archive of the thought > process that led to the changes going in. We used to have that and it was > a useful thing, especially for the more complex components. > > Phil > > > > > and 2) "You need to subscribe to a mailing to continue this > > chat." It's just hard to find when to ask for a switch. Especially > > when GH has a nice UI to make comments _about code_. Over at Log4j, we > > now use GitHub issues instead of Jira, furthering the split... > > > > Gary > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 12:38 PM Phil Steitz <phil.ste...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 10:58 AM Gary D. Gregory <ggreg...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On 2024/06/12 17:17:24 Phil Steitz wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 7:27 AM sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 14:45, Gary D. Gregory < > ggreg...@apache.org > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the draft of our board report for June I plan on > > submitting > > > > in a > > > > > > day or so, feedback is welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Description: > > > > > > > The mission of Apache Commons is the creation and maintenance > of > > Java > > > > > > focused > > > > > > > reusable libraries and components > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Project Status: > > > > > > > Current project status: Ongoing with moderate activity. > > > > > > > Issues for the board: none. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Membership Data: > > > > > > > Apache Commons was founded 2007-06-19 (17 years ago) > > > > > > > There are currently 149 committers and 44 PMC members in this > > > > project. > > > > > > > The Committer-to-PMC ratio is roughly 5:2. > > > > > > > > > > > > Missing from this paragraph is the fact that Commons has enabled > > > > > > universal commit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Community changes, past quarter: > > > > > > > - Claude Warren was added to the PMC on 2024-03-22 > > > > > > > - No new committers. Last addition was Claude Warren on > > 2022-02-01. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Project Activity: > > > > > > > Many releases of our components: > > > > > > > CONFIGUATION-2.11.0 was released on 2024-06-10. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is that a new component? > > > > > > > > > > > > > NET-3.11.1 was released on 2024-06-10. > > > > > > > PARENT-71 was released on 2024-06-10. > > > > > > > JEXL-3.4.0 was released on 2024-06-06. > > > > > > > NET-3.11.0 was released on 2024-05-31. > > > > > > > VALIDATOR-1.9.0 was released on 2024-05-28. > > > > > > > JCS-3.2.1 was released on 2024-05-27. > > > > > > > DAEMON-1.4.0 was released on 2024-05-24. > > > > > > > CLI-1.8.0 was released on 2024-05-23. > > > > > > > COMPRESS-1.26.2 was released on 2024-05-23. > > > > > > > LOGGING-1.3.2 was released on 2024-05-15. > > > > > > > PARENT-70 was released on 2024-05-15. > > > > > > > CSV-1.11.0 was released on 2024-05-02. > > > > > > > RELEASE-PLUGIN-1.8.2 was released on 2024-04-19. > > > > > > > CLI-1.7.0 was released on 2024-04-18. > > > > > > > IMAGING-1.0.0-alpha5 was released on 2024-04-18. > > > > > > > TEXT-1.12.0 was released on 2024-04-16. > > > > > > > BUILD-PLUGIN-1.14.0 was released on 2024-04-15. > > > > > > > IO-2.16.1 was released on 2024-04-08. > > > > > > > COLLECTIONS-4.5.0-M1 was released on 2024-04-02. > > > > > > > IMAGING-1.0.0-alpha4 was released on 2024-04-02. > > > > > > > PARENT-69 was released on 2024-04-01. > > > > > > > IO-2.16.0 was released on 2024-03-28. > > > > > > > LOGGING-1.3.1 was released on 2024-03-24. > > > > > > > PARENT-68 was released on 2024-03-23. > > > > > > > CONFIGURATION-2.10.1 was released on 2024-03-20. > > > > > > > CONFIGURATION-2.10.0 was released on 2024-03-13. > > > > > > > > > > > > The above list should probably be sorted > > > > > > > > > > > > > ## Community Health: > > > > > > > We welcomed Claude Warren as our latest PMC member. Mailing > list > > > > > > activity has > > > > > > > increased. > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the increased mailing list activity is driven by > dependabot > > > > > > PRs, many of which are useless, as it does not take Java > > compatibility > > > > > > into account. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > I have had to filter out most of the messages and once I do that, > > there > > > > is > > > > > almost no actual discussion on-list. I am worried that when people > > do > > > > try > > > > > to start discussion, the messages are being missed. I personally > > see the > > > > > lack of ml discussion as a problem. Lots of code changes are > > happening > > > > > with no discussion, other than maybe random nits on PRs ending up > in > > > > github > > > > > threads that don't end up organized that well in list archives. > This > > > > > problem is not unique to Commons. > > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > > > > > We had a discussion a while back about creating a "bot" email list > but: > > > > - no one actually proposed anything concrete and did any work > > > > - we already have bot lists like "commit", "notifications", "issues", > > > > can't we reuse those? > > > > > > > > > > +1 for that. How about moving the dependabot things to > "notifications"? > > > What exactly do we use that list for now? I think it is important for > > > committers to monitor commits but that is not really possible with all > of > > > the dependabot spam in there. I personally filter that to /dev/null. > > > > > > The problem with github PR comments basically replacing dev@ is a > bigger > > > one. It would be helpful if we could figure out a way to pipe (only) > the > > > code discussion messages to the dev list, but I think the better answer > > > there would be to establish the discipline that any discussion beyond > > nits > > > gets moved to dev@. That may be a dinosaur view, but I think it is > > worth > > > considering. I agree with Gilles that fast processing of long-tail > > > one-shot PRs is useful but misleading when it comes to community > health. > > > Steering people to dev@ and actually talking about the code might be > > > annoying to some in the long tail, but it might net us some new > > committers, > > > which IMO is more valuable than a lot of the one shot PRs that we get. > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > - I don't know if GitHub lets us configure target emails for "I > > created a > > > > PR" (or someone commented on a PR), vs. other types of messages. > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most if not all of our increasing contributions are coming in > > > > > > > through GitHub pull requests. This is working well for us: > > GitHub PRs > > > > > > with > > > > > > > continuous integration builds providing great infrastructure > and > > > > > > validation of > > > > > > > PRs and the existing code base. The flip side is that the > > increase in > > > > > > GitHub > > > > > > > usage is matched by a decrease in Jira usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@commons.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@commons.apache.org > > > > >
