Syed, Kilham, et. al. After some thought I came up with ApplicationCluster. It is not purely machines or instances but includes network and storage resources and maybe more. Next to that these are meant for running application like k8, mesos or DBaaS. I don't like service as prefix because it implies the cluster is for servicing the cloud or VMs that may be broken or need a kind of extra feature while from user perspective they are an addition, hence application to cloudstack.
Any push back? Sent from Nine<http://www.9folders.com/> ________________________________ daan.hoogl...@shapeblue.com www.shapeblue.com 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue From: Daan Hoogland Sent: 28 Feb 2017 6:49 pm To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native vm-cluster orchestration service (was: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service) Syed, I chose machine as they might be bare metal in some cases. Sent from Nine<http://www.9folders.com/> ________________________________ From: Syed Ahmed <sah...@cloudops.com> Sent: 28 Feb 2017 4:22 pm To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native vm-cluster orchestration service (was: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service) We already call the VMs as Instances. So, InstanceCluster would be a better name imo. On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Daan Hoogland <daan.hoogl...@shapeblue.com > wrote: > Kishan, I see some sensible additions but also some unnecessary omissions. > Most of it seems to be Murali’s text so I’ll c&p your improvements back and > rename the page to the more sensible title of “MachineCluster service” and > delete the other. > > About naming, I was thinking MachineCluster instead of ServiceCluster, > makes sense? Or even GuestMachineCluster. ServiceCluster could mean a > supporting cluster that delivers e.g. backup as a service to guests, or > maybe some build, artifact or networking service. For this ambiguity im am > :-1: on the name ServiceCluster. > > > On 28/02/17 11:16, "Kishan Kavala" <kishan.kav...@accelerite.com> wrote: > > Daan, > I've updated the earlier spec to support any Vm cluster. Please let > me know your thoughts on this. > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/ > Service+Cluster+Functional+Specification > > regards, > Kishan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daan Hoogland [mailto:daan.hoogl...@shapeblue.com] > Sent: 27 February 2017 04:02 PM > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native vm-cluster orchestration service > (was: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service) > > Any follow up Koushik? I want to refactor our proof of concept and > integrate it in master. > > On 21/02/17 10:42, "Kishan Kavala" <kishan.kav...@accelerite.com> > wrote: > > Sure Daan. I'll publish the design on cwiki and share the link. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daan Hoogland [mailto:daan.hoogl...@shapeblue.com] > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 7:27 PM > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > Subject: [PROPOSAL] add native vm-cluster orchestration service > (was: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service) > > So, being very late in the discussion but havingread the whole > thread before editting the title of this thread, > > Can we agree that we want a generic vm-cluster service and leave > the container bits to containers? Kishan can you share your design? > Shapeblue wants to rebase their k8 service on top of this and I would like > yours and Murali's work to not conflict. > > daan.hoogl...@shapeblue.com > www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com> > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, Utrecht Utrecht 3531 > VENetherlands @shapeblue > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Angus [mailto:paul.an...@shapeblue.com] > Sent: dinsdag 7 februari 2017 08:14 > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service > > Will is 100% correct. As I mentioned the Title is misleading. > However, Murali did clarify in his explanation; this is really about vm > cluster orchestration. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Will Stevens <wstev...@cloudops.com> > Sent: 6 Feb 2017 22:54 > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service > > My understanding is that what Paul is talking about is what is > already built and IS what the thread is talking about. > > *Will STEVENS* > Lead Developer > > <https://goo.gl/NYZ8KK> > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Rajesh Ramchandani < > rajesh.ramchand...@accelerite.com> wrote: > > > Hi Paul - I think this is different from what the thread was > about. > > The conversation was specifically about adding support for > container > > orchestrators. You are talking about provisioning a group of VMs. > > Although, this is something I think several Cloudstack users have > > requested before and we should propose a solution to this. > > > > Raj > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Angus <paul.an...@shapeblue.com> > > Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 11:16:41 AM > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration > service > > > > #WhatHeSaid > > > > The title is misleading. The proposal is purely to add the > notion of > > Clusters of VMs to CloudStack. These may be for databases, > containers > > or anything else that needs 'clusters' of compute. Self-healing > and > > autoscaling are logical next steps to be added. > > > > Those guys at ShapeBlue have open-sourced their whole k8s > container > > service piece. If/when the 'cluster' part of that work is added > into > > CloudStack, the k8s specific pieces can be used by anyone who > wants > > to, alternatively they could be used for reference in order to > create > > another types of cluster. (or ignored completely). > > > > > > > > > > paul.an...@shapeblue.com > > www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com> > > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstev...@gmail.com] > > Sent: 31 January 2017 13:26 > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration > service > > > > s/cloud-init/cloud-config/ > > > > On Jan 31, 2017 7:24 AM, "Will Stevens" < > williamstev...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I think that is covered in this proposal. There is nothing k8s > > > specific in this integration (from what I understand), all the > k8s > > > details are passed in via the cloud-init configuration after > the > > > cluster > > has been provisioned. > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2017 3:06 AM, "Lianghwa Jou" > > > <lianghwa....@accelerite.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > There are many container orchestrators. Those container > > > orchestrators are happy to run on any VMs or bare metal > machines. > > > K8s is just one of them and there will be more in the future. > It may > > > not be a good idea to make CloudStack to be k8s aware. IMO, the > > > relationship between k8s and cloudstack should be similar to > > > application and os. It probably not a good idea to make your > OS to > > > be aware of any specific applications so IMHO I don’t think > k8s should be native to CloudStack. > > > It makes more sense to provide some generic services that many > > > applications can take advantages of. Some generic resource > grouping > > > service makes sense so a group of VMs, baremetal machines or > network > > > can be treated as a single entity. Some life cycle management > will > > > be necessary for these entities too. We can deploy k8s, swarm, > dcos > > > or even non-container specific services on top of CloudStack. > The > > > k8s is changing fast. One single tenant installation may need > more > > > than one VM group and may actually requires more (k8s > federation). > > > It will be a struggle to be in sync if we try to bring k8s > specific > > > knowledge into > > cloudstack. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Lianghwa Jou > > > VP Engineering, Accelerite > > > email: lianghwa....@accelerite.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/29/17, 11:54 PM, "Murali Reddy" < > murali.re...@shapeblue.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree with some good views Will has shared and I also > agree to > > > the concerns raised by Wido and Eric. IMO we need balance of > staying > > > relevant/add new features vs stability of CloudStack and take > > > corrective action if needed. We have two good examples for > both. > > > When SDN was hot technology CloudStack ended up with bunch of > SDN > > > controller > > integrations. > > > Few years later, now CloudStack is carrying baggage with no > > > maintainers for those plugins, with probably not many of > CloudStack > > users needing overlays. > > > On the other hand, other than attempt to liaison with ETSI for > NFV > > > no effort was done. OpenStack has become de-facto for NFV. Now > for > > > OpenStack, arguably NFV has become larger use case than cloud > it self. > > > I concur with Will’s point that with minimal viable solution > that > > > does not change the core of CloudStack, and can keep CloudStack > > > relevant is worth to be taken in. > > > > > > Will, > > > > > > To your question of how different is from ShapeBlue’s > container > > > service, its design, implementation and API semantics etc > remain same. > > > ShapeBlue’s container service was true drop in plug-in to > > > CloudStack, with this proposal I am trying to re-work to make > it a > > > core CloudStack pluggable service which is part of CloudStack. > > > > > > Key concepts that this proposal is trying to add > > > > > > - add notion of ‘container cluster’ as a first class > entity > > > in CloudStack. Which is bacially collection of other CloudStack > > > resources (like VM’s, networks, public ip, network rules etc) > > > - life cycle operation to manage ‘container cluster’ > like > > > create, delete, start, stop, scale-up, scale-down, heal etc > > > - orchestrate container orchestrator control plane on > top of > > > provisioned resources > > > > > > At-least for k8s (which is what this proposal is > targeting), > > > integration with k8s is bare minimum. There are cloud-config > scripts > > > that automatically setup k8s cluster master and node VM’s. All > > > CloudStack is doing in passing the cloud-config to the core OS > VM’s > > > as > > user data. > > > > > > Regards > > > Murali Reddy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29/01/17, 8:54 AM, "Will Stevens" < > williamstev...@gmail.com > > > on behalf of wstev...@cloudops.com> wrote: > > > > > > >I agree that we need to be careful what we take on and > own inside > > > >CloudStack. I feel like some of the plugins or > integrations > > > which we have > > > >been "maintaining" may serve us better to abandon, but I > feel > > > like that is > > > >a whole discussion on its own. > > > > > > > >In this case, I feel like there is a minimum viable > solution > > > which puts > > > >CloudStack in a pretty good place to enable container > orchestration. > > > For > > > >example, one of the biggest challenges with K8S is the > fact > > > that it > > is > > > >single tenant. CloudStack has good multi tenancy support > and > > > has > > the > > > >ability to orchestrate the underlying infra quite well. > We > > > will have to be > > > >very careful not to try to own too deep into the K8S world > > > though, in my > > > >opinion. We only want to be responsible for providing the > > > infra (and a way > > > >to bootstrap K8S ideally) and be able to scale the infra, > > > everything else > > > >should be owned by the K8S on top. That is the way I see > it > > > anyway, but > > > >please add your input. > > > > > > > >I think it is a liability to try to go too deep, for the > same > > > reasons Wido > > > >and Erik have mentioned. But I also think we need to > take it > > > seriously > > > >because that train is moving and this may be a good > opportunity > > > to stay > > > >relevant in a rapidly changing market. > > > > > > > >*Will STEVENS* > > > >Lead Developer > > > > > > > ><https://goo.gl/NYZ8KK> > > > > > > > >On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Wido den Hollander > > > <w...@widodh.nl> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > Op 27 januari 2017 om 16:08 schreef Will Stevens < > > > wstev...@cloudops.com > > > >> >: > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Hey Murali, > > > >> > How different is this proposal than what ShapeBlue > already > > > built. It > > > >> looks > > > >> > pretty consistent with the functionality that you > guys open > > > sourced in > > > >> > Seville. > > > >> > > > > >> > I have not yet used this functionality, but I have > reports > > > that it works > > > >> > quite well. > > > >> > > > > >> > I believe the premise here is to only orchestrate the > VM > > > layer > > and > > > >> > basically expose a "group" of running VMs to the > user. The > > > user is > > > >> > responsible for configuring K8S or whatever other > container > > > orchestrator > > > >> on > > > >> > top. I saw mention of the "cloud-config" scripts in > the > > > FS, how are > > > >> those > > > >> > exposed to the cluster? Maybe the FS can expand on > that a bit? > > > >> > > > > >> > I believe the core feature that is being requested to > be > > > added is the > > > >> > ability to create a group of VMs which will be kept > active > > > as a group if > > > >> at > > > >> > all possible. ACS would be responsible for making > sure > > > that the number > > > >> of > > > >> > VMs specified for the group are in running state and > it > > > would spin up new > > > >> > VMs as needed in order to satisfy the group > settings. In > > > general, it is > > > >> > understood that any application running on this group > would > > > have to be > > > >> > fault tolerant enough to be able to rediscover a new > VM if > > > one fails and > > > >> is > > > >> > replaced by a fresh copy. Is that fair to say? How > is it > > > expected that > > > >> > this service discovery is done, just by VMs being > present > > > on the network? > > > >> > > > > >> > As for some of the other people's concerns in this > thread. > > > >> > > > > >> > - Regarding Wido's remarks. I understand that there > is > > > some > > added > > > >> > complexity, but I don't feel like the scope of the > addition is > > > >> > unrealistic. I think the LXC integration was a lot > farther > > > out of the > > > >> > scope of what ACS does then this is. This does not > change > > > the "things" > > > >> > which ACS orchestrates, it just adds the concept of a > > > grouping of things > > > >> > which ACS already manages. I think this is the right > > > approach since it > > > >> is > > > >> > not trying to be a container orchestrator. We will > never > > > compete with > > > >> K8S, > > > >> > for example, and we should not try, but K8S is here > and the > > > market wants > > > >> > it. I do think we should be keeping our head up > about that > > > fact because > > > >> > being able to provide a the underlay for K8S is very > > > valuable in the > > > >> > current marketplace. I see this functionality as a > way to > > > enable K8S > > > >> > adoption on top of ACS without changing our core > values. > > > >> > > > > >> > - Regarding Erik's remarks. The container space is > moving > > > fast, but so > > > >> is > > > >> > the industry. If we want to remain relevant, we need > to be > > > able to > > > >> adapt a > > > >> > bit. I don't think this is a big shift in what we > do, but > > > it is one that > > > >> > enables people to be able to start running with > something > > > like K8S on top > > > >> > of their existing ACS. This is something we are > interested > > > in doing and > > > >> so > > > >> > are our customers. If we can have a thin layer in ACS > > > which helps enable > > > >> > the use of K8S (or other container orchestrators) by > > orchestrating > > > >> > infrastructure, as we already do, and making it > easier to > > > adopt > > a > > > >> container > > > >> > orchestrator running on top of ACS, I think that > gives us a > > > nice foothold > > > >> > in the market. I don't really feel it is fair to > compare > > > containers to > > > >> > IPv6. IPv6 has been out forever and it has taken > almost a > > > decade to get > > > >> > anyone to adopt it. Containers have really only been > here > > > for like 2 > > > >> years > > > >> > and they are changing the market landscape in a very > real way. > > > >> > > > > >> > Kind of on topic and kind of off topic. I think > > > understanding > > our > > > >> approach > > > >> > to containers is going to be important for the ACS > > > community as a whole. > > > >> > If we don't offer that market anything, then we will > not be > > > considered > > > >> and > > > >> > we will lose market share we can't afford to lose. > If we > > > try to hitch > > > >> our > > > >> > horse to that cart too much, we will not be able to be > > > agile enough and > > > >> > will fail. I feel like the right approach is for us > to > > > know that it is a > > > >> > thriving market and continue to do what we do, but to > > > extend an olive > > > >> > branch to that market. I think this sort of > implementation > > > is the right > > > >> > approach because we are not trying to do too much. > We are > > > simply giving > > > >> a > > > >> > foundation on which the next big thing in the > container > > > orchestration > > > >> world > > > >> > can adopt without us having to compete directly in > that > > > space. I think > > > >> we > > > >> > have to focus on what we do best, but at the same > time, > > > think about what > > > >> we > > > >> > can do to enable that huge market of users to adopt > ACS as their > > > >> > foundation. The ability to offer VMs and containers > in the > > > same data > > > >> plane > > > >> > is something we have the ability to do, especially > with > > > this approach, > > > >> and > > > >> > is something that most other softwares can not do. > The > > > adoption of > > > >> > containers by bigger organizations will be only part > of > > > their workload, > > > >> > they will still be running VMs for the foreseeable > future. > > > Being able to > > > >> > appeal to that market is going to be important for us. > > > >> > > > > >> > Hopefully I don't have too many strong opinions here, > but I > > > do think we > > > >> > need to be thinking about how we move forward in a > world > > > which > > is > > > >> adopting > > > >> > containers in a very real way. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> Understood. I just want to prevent that we add more > features > > > to CloudStack > > > >> which are poorly maintained. Not judging Murali here at > all, > > > but I'd rather > > > >> see CloudStack loose code then have it added. > > > >> > > > >> Thinking about LXC, would like to see that removed > together > > > with various > > > >> other network plugins which I think are rarely used. > > > >> > > > >> Now, the idea of Murali was misunderstood by me. I > think it > > > would be worth > > > >> more if we would improve our cloud-init support and > > > integration in various > > > >> tools which makes it much easier to deploy VMs running > > > containers > > ON > > > >> CloudStack. > > > >> > > > >> Not so much changing CloudStack code, but rather tooling > > > around > > it. > > > >> > > > >> If we have CloudStack talking to Kubernetes we suddenly > have > > > to maintain > > > >> that API integration. Who's going to do that. > Realistically. > > > >> > > > >> That's my main worry in this regard. > > > >> > > > >> We have so much more work to do in ACS in total that I > don't > > > know if this > > > >> is the realistic route. I talk to many people who are > not > > > looking > > at > > > >> containers and are still working with VMs. > > > >> > > > >> There is not a single truth which is true, it really > depends > > > on who you > > > >> ask. > > > >> > > > >> Wido > > > >> > > > >> > Cheers, > > > >> > > > > >> > Will > > > >> > > > > >> > *Will STEVENS* > > > >> > Lead Developer > > > >> > > > > >> > <https://goo.gl/NYZ8KK> > > > >> > > > > >> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:38 AM, Erik Weber > > > <terbol...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Murali Reddy < > > > muralimmre...@gmail.com > > > >> > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > >> > > > All, > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > I would like propose native functionality into > > > CloudStack to provide > > > >> a > > > >> > > container service through which users out-of-the > box can > > > use to launch > > > >> > > container based application. Idea is to support > ability > > > to orchestrate > > > >> the > > > >> > > resources and automate aspects of setting up > container > > > orchestrator > > > >> through > > > >> > > CloudStack. Public IAAS service providers AWS with > its > > > ECS [1] and > > > >> google > > > >> > > with GKE [2] already provides ability container > applications. > > > >> Competitive > > > >> > > cloud orchestration platforms already have native > support > > > for container > > > >> > > service. Users of CloudStack both as public cloud > > > providers and users > > > >> with > > > >> > > private clouds will benefit with such functionality. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > While container orchestrator of user choice can be > > > provisioned on > > > >> top of > > > >> > > CloudStack (with out CloudStack being involved) with > > > tools > > like > > > >> > > TerraForm[3], Ansible[4] etc, advantage of having > native > > > orchestration > > > >> is > > > >> > > giving user a nice cohesive integration. This > proposal > > > would like add a > > > >> > > notion of first class CloudStack entity called > container > > > cluster which > > > >> can > > > >> > > be used to provision resources, scale up, scale > down, > > > start and stop > > > >> the > > > >> > > cluster of VM’s on which containerised applications > can > > > be > > run. > > > For > > > >> actual > > > >> > > container orchestration we will still need container > > > orchestrator like > > > >> > > docker swarm, marathon, kubernetes, but CloudStack > > > container service > > > >> can > > > >> > > automate setting up of control place automatically. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > To be honest I'm torn on this one. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Containers are a rapid changing thing, and while > docker swam, > > > >> > > kubernetes, rancher or whatnot is popular today, > they > > > might not be > > > >> > > tomorrow. > > > >> > > They might use CoreOS today, but might not tomorrow. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > We have a rather poor track record of staying up to > date > > > with new > > > >> > > features/versions, and adding a feature that is so > > > rapidly changing > > > >> > > is, I fear, going to be hard to maintain. > > > >> > > Want an example, look at xenserver. It is one of > the most used > > > >> > > hypervisors we support, yet it took 6 months or so > for us > > > to support > > > >> > > the latest release. > > > >> > > Or IPv6... > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I don't mean to bash at maintainers/implementers of > those > > > features, I > > > >> > > appreciate all the work being done in every aspect, > but I > > > believe we > > > >> > > should be realistic and realize that we have issues > with > > > keeping stuff > > > >> > > up to date. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I'd say focus on making sure other tools can do > their job > > > well against > > > >> > > CloudStack (kops, rancher, ++), but that does not > mean I > > > will > > > -1 the > > > >> > > idea if anyone really wants to go through with it. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > -- > > > >> > > Erik > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > murali.re...@shapeblue.com > > > www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com> > > > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK > > > @shapeblue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER > > > ========== > > > This e-mail may contain privileged and confidential information > > > which is the property of Accelerite, a Persistent Systems > business. > > > It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to > which > > > it is addressed. 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