So, being very late in the discussion but havingread the whole thread before editting the title of this thread,
Can we agree that we want a generic vm-cluster service and leave the container bits to containers? Kishan can you share your design? Shapeblue wants to rebase their k8 service on top of this and I would like yours and Murali's work to not conflict. daan.hoogl...@shapeblue.com www.shapeblue.com 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, Utrecht Utrecht 3531 VENetherlands @shapeblue -----Original Message----- From: Paul Angus [mailto:paul.an...@shapeblue.com] Sent: dinsdag 7 februari 2017 08:14 To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service Will is 100% correct. As I mentioned the Title is misleading. However, Murali did clarify in his explanation; this is really about vm cluster orchestration. ________________________________ From: Will Stevens <wstev...@cloudops.com> Sent: 6 Feb 2017 22:54 To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service My understanding is that what Paul is talking about is what is already built and IS what the thread is talking about. *Will STEVENS* Lead Developer <https://goo.gl/NYZ8KK> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Rajesh Ramchandani < rajesh.ramchand...@accelerite.com> wrote: > Hi Paul - I think this is different from what the thread was about. > The conversation was specifically about adding support for container > orchestrators. You are talking about provisioning a group of VMs. > Although, this is something I think several Cloudstack users have > requested before and we should propose a solution to this. > > Raj > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Angus <paul.an...@shapeblue.com> > Sent: Monday, February 6, 2017 11:16:41 AM > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service > > #WhatHeSaid > > The title is misleading. The proposal is purely to add the notion of > Clusters of VMs to CloudStack. These may be for databases, containers > or anything else that needs 'clusters' of compute. Self-healing and > autoscaling are logical next steps to be added. > > Those guys at ShapeBlue have open-sourced their whole k8s container > service piece. If/when the 'cluster' part of that work is added into > CloudStack, the k8s specific pieces can be used by anyone who wants > to, alternatively they could be used for reference in order to create > another types of cluster. (or ignored completely). > > > > > paul.an...@shapeblue.com > www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com> > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstev...@gmail.com] > Sent: 31 January 2017 13:26 > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] add native container orchestration service > > s/cloud-init/cloud-config/ > > On Jan 31, 2017 7:24 AM, "Will Stevens" <williamstev...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I think that is covered in this proposal. There is nothing k8s > > specific in this integration (from what I understand), all the k8s > > details are passed in via the cloud-init configuration after the cluster > has been provisioned. > > > > On Jan 31, 2017 3:06 AM, "Lianghwa Jou" <lianghwa....@accelerite.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > There are many container orchestrators. Those container orchestrators > > are happy to run on any VMs or bare metal machines. K8s is just one of > > them and there will be more in the future. It may not be a good idea > > to make CloudStack to be k8s aware. IMO, the relationship between k8s > > and cloudstack should be similar to application and os. It probably > > not a good idea to make your OS to be aware of any specific > > applications so IMHO I don’t think k8s should be native to CloudStack. > > It makes more sense to provide some generic services that many > > applications can take advantages of. Some generic resource grouping > > service makes sense so a group of VMs, baremetal machines or network > > can be treated as a single entity. Some life cycle management will be > > necessary for these entities too. We can deploy k8s, swarm, dcos or > > even non-container specific services on top of CloudStack. The k8s is > > changing fast. One single tenant installation may need more than one > > VM group and may actually requires more (k8s federation). It will be a > > struggle to be in sync if we try to bring k8s specific knowledge into > cloudstack. > > > > Regards, > > > > > > -- > > Lianghwa Jou > > VP Engineering, Accelerite > > email: lianghwa....@accelerite.com > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/29/17, 11:54 PM, "Murali Reddy" <murali.re...@shapeblue.com> wrote: > > > > > > I agree with some good views Will has shared and I also agree to > > the concerns raised by Wido and Eric. IMO we need balance of staying > > relevant/add new features vs stability of CloudStack and take > > corrective action if needed. We have two good examples for both. When > > SDN was hot technology CloudStack ended up with bunch of SDN controller > integrations. > > Few years later, now CloudStack is carrying baggage with no > > maintainers for those plugins, with probably not many of CloudStack > users needing overlays. > > On the other hand, other than attempt to liaison with ETSI for NFV no > > effort was done. OpenStack has become de-facto for NFV. Now for > > OpenStack, arguably NFV has become larger use case than cloud it self. > > I concur with Will’s point that with minimal viable solution that does > > not change the core of CloudStack, and can keep CloudStack relevant is > > worth to be taken in. > > > > Will, > > > > To your question of how different is from ShapeBlue’s container > > service, its design, implementation and API semantics etc remain same. > > ShapeBlue’s container service was true drop in plug-in to CloudStack, > > with this proposal I am trying to re-work to make it a core CloudStack > > pluggable service which is part of CloudStack. > > > > Key concepts that this proposal is trying to add > > > > - add notion of ‘container cluster’ as a first class entity in > > CloudStack. Which is bacially collection of other CloudStack resources > > (like VM’s, networks, public ip, network rules etc) > > - life cycle operation to manage ‘container cluster’ like > > create, delete, start, stop, scale-up, scale-down, heal etc > > - orchestrate container orchestrator control plane on top of > > provisioned resources > > > > At-least for k8s (which is what this proposal is targeting), > > integration with k8s is bare minimum. There are cloud-config scripts > > that automatically setup k8s cluster master and node VM’s. All > > CloudStack is doing in passing the cloud-config to the core OS VM’s as > user data. > > > > Regards > > Murali Reddy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29/01/17, 8:54 AM, "Will Stevens" <williamstev...@gmail.com on > > behalf of wstev...@cloudops.com> wrote: > > > > >I agree that we need to be careful what we take on and own inside > > >CloudStack. I feel like some of the plugins or integrations > > which we have > > >been "maintaining" may serve us better to abandon, but I feel > > like that is > > >a whole discussion on its own. > > > > > >In this case, I feel like there is a minimum viable solution > > which puts > > >CloudStack in a pretty good place to enable container orchestration. > > For > > >example, one of the biggest challenges with K8S is the fact that it > is > > >single tenant. CloudStack has good multi tenancy support and has > the > > >ability to orchestrate the underlying infra quite well. We will > > have to be > > >very careful not to try to own too deep into the K8S world > > though, in my > > >opinion. We only want to be responsible for providing the infra > > (and a way > > >to bootstrap K8S ideally) and be able to scale the infra, > > everything else > > >should be owned by the K8S on top. That is the way I see it > > anyway, but > > >please add your input. > > > > > >I think it is a liability to try to go too deep, for the same > > reasons Wido > > >and Erik have mentioned. But I also think we need to take it > > seriously > > >because that train is moving and this may be a good opportunity > > to stay > > >relevant in a rapidly changing market. > > > > > >*Will STEVENS* > > >Lead Developer > > > > > ><https://goo.gl/NYZ8KK> > > > > > >On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Wido den Hollander > > <w...@widodh.nl> > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > Op 27 januari 2017 om 16:08 schreef Will Stevens < > > wstev...@cloudops.com > > >> >: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Hey Murali, > > >> > How different is this proposal than what ShapeBlue already > > built. It > > >> looks > > >> > pretty consistent with the functionality that you guys open > > sourced in > > >> > Seville. > > >> > > > >> > I have not yet used this functionality, but I have reports > > that it works > > >> > quite well. > > >> > > > >> > I believe the premise here is to only orchestrate the VM layer > and > > >> > basically expose a "group" of running VMs to the user. The > > user is > > >> > responsible for configuring K8S or whatever other container > > orchestrator > > >> on > > >> > top. I saw mention of the "cloud-config" scripts in the FS, > > how are > > >> those > > >> > exposed to the cluster? Maybe the FS can expand on that a bit? > > >> > > > >> > I believe the core feature that is being requested to be > > added is the > > >> > ability to create a group of VMs which will be kept active as > > a group if > > >> at > > >> > all possible. ACS would be responsible for making sure that > > the number > > >> of > > >> > VMs specified for the group are in running state and it would > > spin up new > > >> > VMs as needed in order to satisfy the group settings. In > > general, it is > > >> > understood that any application running on this group would > > have to be > > >> > fault tolerant enough to be able to rediscover a new VM if > > one fails and > > >> is > > >> > replaced by a fresh copy. Is that fair to say? How is it > > expected that > > >> > this service discovery is done, just by VMs being present on > > the network? > > >> > > > >> > As for some of the other people's concerns in this thread. > > >> > > > >> > - Regarding Wido's remarks. I understand that there is some > added > > >> > complexity, but I don't feel like the scope of the addition is > > >> > unrealistic. I think the LXC integration was a lot farther > > out of the > > >> > scope of what ACS does then this is. This does not change > > the "things" > > >> > which ACS orchestrates, it just adds the concept of a > > grouping of things > > >> > which ACS already manages. I think this is the right > > approach since it > > >> is > > >> > not trying to be a container orchestrator. We will never > > compete with > > >> K8S, > > >> > for example, and we should not try, but K8S is here and the > > market wants > > >> > it. I do think we should be keeping our head up about that > > fact because > > >> > being able to provide a the underlay for K8S is very valuable > > in the > > >> > current marketplace. I see this functionality as a way to > > enable K8S > > >> > adoption on top of ACS without changing our core values. > > >> > > > >> > - Regarding Erik's remarks. The container space is moving > > fast, but so > > >> is > > >> > the industry. If we want to remain relevant, we need to be > > able to > > >> adapt a > > >> > bit. I don't think this is a big shift in what we do, but it > > is one that > > >> > enables people to be able to start running with something > > like K8S on top > > >> > of their existing ACS. This is something we are interested > > in doing and > > >> so > > >> > are our customers. If we can have a thin layer in ACS which > > helps enable > > >> > the use of K8S (or other container orchestrators) by > orchestrating > > >> > infrastructure, as we already do, and making it easier to adopt > a > > >> container > > >> > orchestrator running on top of ACS, I think that gives us a > > nice foothold > > >> > in the market. I don't really feel it is fair to compare > > containers to > > >> > IPv6. IPv6 has been out forever and it has taken almost a > > decade to get > > >> > anyone to adopt it. Containers have really only been here > > for like 2 > > >> years > > >> > and they are changing the market landscape in a very real way. > > >> > > > >> > Kind of on topic and kind of off topic. I think understanding > our > > >> approach > > >> > to containers is going to be important for the ACS community > > as a whole. > > >> > If we don't offer that market anything, then we will not be > > considered > > >> and > > >> > we will lose market share we can't afford to lose. If we try > > to hitch > > >> our > > >> > horse to that cart too much, we will not be able to be agile > > enough and > > >> > will fail. I feel like the right approach is for us to know > > that it is a > > >> > thriving market and continue to do what we do, but to extend > > an olive > > >> > branch to that market. I think this sort of implementation > > is the right > > >> > approach because we are not trying to do too much. We are > > simply giving > > >> a > > >> > foundation on which the next big thing in the container > > orchestration > > >> world > > >> > can adopt without us having to compete directly in that > > space. I think > > >> we > > >> > have to focus on what we do best, but at the same time, think > > about what > > >> we > > >> > can do to enable that huge market of users to adopt ACS as their > > >> > foundation. The ability to offer VMs and containers in the > > same data > > >> plane > > >> > is something we have the ability to do, especially with this > > approach, > > >> and > > >> > is something that most other softwares can not do. The > > adoption of > > >> > containers by bigger organizations will be only part of their > > workload, > > >> > they will still be running VMs for the foreseeable future. > > Being able to > > >> > appeal to that market is going to be important for us. > > >> > > > >> > Hopefully I don't have too many strong opinions here, but I > > do think we > > >> > need to be thinking about how we move forward in a world which > is > > >> adopting > > >> > containers in a very real way. > > >> > > > >> > > >> Understood. I just want to prevent that we add more features to > > CloudStack > > >> which are poorly maintained. Not judging Murali here at all, > > but I'd rather > > >> see CloudStack loose code then have it added. > > >> > > >> Thinking about LXC, would like to see that removed together > > with various > > >> other network plugins which I think are rarely used. > > >> > > >> Now, the idea of Murali was misunderstood by me. I think it > > would be worth > > >> more if we would improve our cloud-init support and integration > > in various > > >> tools which makes it much easier to deploy VMs running containers > ON > > >> CloudStack. > > >> > > >> Not so much changing CloudStack code, but rather tooling around > it. > > >> > > >> If we have CloudStack talking to Kubernetes we suddenly have to > > maintain > > >> that API integration. Who's going to do that. Realistically. > > >> > > >> That's my main worry in this regard. > > >> > > >> We have so much more work to do in ACS in total that I don't > > know if this > > >> is the realistic route. I talk to many people who are not looking > at > > >> containers and are still working with VMs. > > >> > > >> There is not a single truth which is true, it really depends on > > who you > > >> ask. > > >> > > >> Wido > > >> > > >> > Cheers, > > >> > > > >> > Will > > >> > > > >> > *Will STEVENS* > > >> > Lead Developer > > >> > > > >> > <https://goo.gl/NYZ8KK> > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:38 AM, Erik Weber > > <terbol...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Murali Reddy < > > muralimmre...@gmail.com > > >> > > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > All, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I would like propose native functionality into CloudStack > > to provide > > >> a > > >> > > container service through which users out-of-the box can > > use to launch > > >> > > container based application. Idea is to support ability to > > orchestrate > > >> the > > >> > > resources and automate aspects of setting up container > > orchestrator > > >> through > > >> > > CloudStack. Public IAAS service providers AWS with its ECS > > [1] and > > >> google > > >> > > with GKE [2] already provides ability container applications. > > >> Competitive > > >> > > cloud orchestration platforms already have native support > > for container > > >> > > service. Users of CloudStack both as public cloud providers > > and users > > >> with > > >> > > private clouds will benefit with such functionality. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > While container orchestrator of user choice can be > > provisioned on > > >> top of > > >> > > CloudStack (with out CloudStack being involved) with tools > like > > >> > > TerraForm[3], Ansible[4] etc, advantage of having native > > orchestration > > >> is > > >> > > giving user a nice cohesive integration. This proposal > > would like add a > > >> > > notion of first class CloudStack entity called container > > cluster which > > >> can > > >> > > be used to provision resources, scale up, scale down, start > > and stop > > >> the > > >> > > cluster of VM’s on which containerised applications can be > run. > > For > > >> actual > > >> > > container orchestration we will still need container > > orchestrator like > > >> > > docker swarm, marathon, kubernetes, but CloudStack > > container service > > >> can > > >> > > automate setting up of control place automatically. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > To be honest I'm torn on this one. > > >> > > > > >> > > Containers are a rapid changing thing, and while docker swam, > > >> > > kubernetes, rancher or whatnot is popular today, they might > > not be > > >> > > tomorrow. > > >> > > They might use CoreOS today, but might not tomorrow. > > >> > > > > >> > > We have a rather poor track record of staying up to date > > with new > > >> > > features/versions, and adding a feature that is so rapidly > > changing > > >> > > is, I fear, going to be hard to maintain. > > >> > > Want an example, look at xenserver. It is one of the most used > > >> > > hypervisors we support, yet it took 6 months or so for us > > to support > > >> > > the latest release. > > >> > > Or IPv6... > > >> > > > > >> > > I don't mean to bash at maintainers/implementers of those > > features, I > > >> > > appreciate all the work being done in every aspect, but I > > believe we > > >> > > should be realistic and realize that we have issues with > > keeping stuff > > >> > > up to date. > > >> > > > > >> > > I'd say focus on making sure other tools can do their job > > well against > > >> > > CloudStack (kops, rancher, ++), but that does not mean I > > will > > -1 the > > >> > > idea if anyone really wants to go through with it. > > >> > > > > >> > > -- > > >> > > Erik > > >> > > > > >> > > > > murali.re...@shapeblue.com > > www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com> > > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK > > @shapeblue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER > > ========== > > This e-mail may contain privileged and confidential information which > > is the property of Accelerite, a Persistent Systems business. It is > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is > > addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not > > authorized to read, retain, copy, print, distribute or use this > > message. If you have received this communication in error, please > > notify the sender and delete all copies of this message. Accelerite, a > > Persistent Systems business does not accept any liability for virus > infected mails. > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER > ========== > This e-mail may contain privileged and confidential information which is > the property of Accelerite, a Persistent Systems business. It is intended > only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If > you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, retain, > copy, print, distribute or use this message. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify the sender and delete all copies of > this message. Accelerite, a Persistent Systems business does not accept any > liability for virus infected mails. > paul.an...@shapeblue.com www.shapeblue.com 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
