I think that all sounds good. Let's get that new CEP started then. I think there are opinions flying around based on last week's discussions that need to coalesce.
Patrick On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 3:19 PM Francisco Guerrero <fran...@apache.org> wrote: > From my point of view CEP-1 is overly broad in terms it wants to achieve. > My understanding is that CEPs have to have a well-defined scope. > > I agree with Joey that we should close CEP-1 with the features I have > proposed earlier in this thread. And have any future Sidecar work captured > in > subsequent CEPs. > > Best, > - Francisco > > On 2024/10/14 21:58:55 Joseph Lynch wrote: > > Hi everyone! > > > > I am curious what Dinesh's perspective is but I think the specific > > enumerated scope in CEP-1 isn't super critical to be honest. That CEP > > successfully (imo) built consensus that the community wants a separate > > management process, and that sidecar both exists today and has useful > > functionality (which is great!). I agree with Jon and others in these > > threads that the functionality isn't super accessible until some of the > > tickets Francisco mentioned are worked on and a release is made. I also > > agree with Francisco that getting to a release, even if it is an alpha, > > should be the goal - let's get to a release. > > > > I am personally fine closing CEP-1 and saying "This CEP has been > superseded > > by subsequent CEPs - future work in the sidecar requiring community > > consensus will have separate CEPs as needed". That doesn't mean that the > > scope in CEP-1 isn't useful, and I hope some of the gaps are added in the > > future, but I think we can release without them and the focus should be > on > > the gaps for release not the gaps in functionality with CEP-1. > > > > Also I should mention I am extremely excited to see all the great > features > > that have landed and that there is a place outside the main DB for those > > kinds of innovations to be tried out that doesn't conflict with the main > > process. In my mind, having that place was the purpose of CEP-1, which is > > done - the specific enumerated features are less important in my opinion. > > > > -Joey > > > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 4:09 PM Patrick McFadin <pmcfa...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > What are we going to do with CEP-1? Cut and rescope in a new CEP or > > > rewrite CEP-1? > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2024 at 11:18 AM Francisco Guerrero < > fran...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Hi folks, > > >> > > >> It was great meeting some of you in person at Community over Code > where > > >> we had a chance to discuss the Cassandra Sidecar project. A lot of > > >> you expressed interest in having a release of Sidecar to start using > the > > >> existing features in the project: > > >> > > >> - C* adapters for versions 4.0, 4.1, 5.0 and trunk > > >> - Cassandra Analytics support > > >> - Restoring SSTables from S3-compatible object storage > > >> - Mutual TLS authentication > > >> - Role base access control > > >> - Cluster health checks > > >> - Observability > > >> - Sidecar Client > > >> > > >> Some of the call-outs in this thread of things we need for a release: > > >> > > >> - Documentation > > >> - Bug fixes [1][2][3] > > >> > > >> These are other things mentioned in the thread, where we would like > help > > >> from the community: > > >> > > >> - vNode support [4] > > >> - Backup support [5] > > >> - Bulk APIs [6] > > >> > > >> Once we have documentation and the bug fixes mentioned above, I will > > >> start a thread vote for a release of Cassandra Sidecar 0.1 alpha. > > >> > > >> We want the community to benefit from the features already present in > > >> Sidecar. The more community engagement we have, the more feature-rich > > >> will become. > > >> > > >> Additionally, we can leverage easy-cass-stress to have Cassandra > Sidecar > > >> included in your Cassandra clusters, so we can easily start trying it > out. > > >> > > >> Please let me know your thoughts on this. > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> - Francisco > > >> > > >> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-120 > > >> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-121 > > >> [3] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-122 > > >> [4] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-149 > > >> [5] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-148 > > >> [6] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-3 > > >> > > >> On 2024/10/03 12:05:14 Josh McKenzie wrote: > > >> > I'm tentatively in favor of the idea of us cutting releases for all > our > > >> ecosystem dependencies as a blocker to cutting a major with Cassandra > > >> proper. I say tentatively since we've had trouble getting majors > across the > > >> line for awhile so adding more dependencies to that feels risky, > however I > > >> think the improvement to user experience justifies it. > > >> > > > >> > Also - I suspect the effort required to get subprojects across the > line > > >> will be quite a bit less than the mainline DB. > > >> > > > >> > If this is something there's agreement / consensus on, I'd be happy > to > > >> take on the role of driving that coordination in the future. > > >> > > > >> > On Wed, Oct 2, 2024, at 3:16 PM, Jon Haddad wrote: > > >> > > > Mostly Analytics, which should not be a blocker for Sidecar. > > >> > > > > >> > > Yes, agreed. I'm just trying to understand the context of the > vnode > > >> statement and how we're framing 1.0 sidecar. > > >> > > > > >> > > > We definitely need to support 5.0 for the Analytics release, but > > >> that's orthogonal to Sidecar. > > >> > > > > >> > > It is, unless we're endorsing the analytics library as a primary > > >> reason to use sidecar. Then it becomes a dependency people rely on, > and I > > >> don't want it blocking people from upgrading. > > >> > > > > >> > > > Yeah, definitely. I agree that we need to support the latest > > >> released version of Cassandra in ecosystem projects. However, without > > >> official releases there won't be adoption and without adoption there > won't > > >> be feedback from the community on what features / improvements are > needed. > > >> > > > > >> > > I don't expect that our first release will be feature complete, > but > > >> it should be at least compelling. I'm still not aware of what > > >> functionality exists that would meet that requirement. > > >> > > > > >> > > Think about this from the perspective of reading a blog post. > We're > > >> excited to announce sidecar 1.0! Here's what you can do: > > >> > > > > >> > > 1. Backup / restore? > > >> > > 2. ? > > >> > > 3. ? > > >> > > > > >> > > All I'm asking for are 3 reasons why people should care. If one > of > > >> them is backups, do we provide more flexible backup targets than S3, > and if > > >> we provide incremental / continuous backup options? Is there a > scheduler > > >> or do people need to roll their own? Is it coordinated, or is the > intent > > >> that people handle it on their own? > > >> > > > > >> > > I work with a lot of end users - this is the type of thing that > > >> affects people and can either help or harm the project image. > > >> > > > > >> > > Jon > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 2:40 PM Francisco Guerrero < > fran...@apache.org> > > >> wrote: > > >> > >> > By vnode support, do you mean the analytics library? Or do > other > > >> features > > >> > >> > in sidecar not work with vnodes? > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Mostly Analytics, which should not be a blocker for Sidecar. > > >> However, I do > > >> > >> feel there should be more testing around vnodes in Sidecar. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > If we're talking about analytics, that gets a little > complicated. > > >> Are we > > >> > >> > also then talking about 1.0'ing analytics? If so, I think we > need > > >> support > > >> > >> > for 5.0 and BTI there. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> We need to release Analytics at some point as well, we should > have a > > >> similar > > >> > >> discuss thread regarding Analytics. We definitely need to support > > >> 5.0 for the > > >> > >> Analytics release, but that's orthogonal to Sidecar. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Increasing the size of the ecosystem is challenging... > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Yeah, definitely. I agree that we need to support the latest > > >> released version > > >> > >> of Cassandra in ecosystem projects. However, without official > > >> releases > > >> > >> there won't be adoption and without adoption there won't be > feedback > > >> from > > >> > >> the community on what features / improvements are needed. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On 2024/10/02 18:05:42 Jon Haddad wrote: > > >> > >> > By vnode support, do you mean the analytics library? Or do > other > > >> features > > >> > >> > in sidecar not work with vnodes? > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > If we're talking about analytics, that gets a little > complicated. > > >> Are we > > >> > >> > also then talking about 1.0'ing analytics? If so, I think we > need > > >> support > > >> > >> > for 5.0 and BTI there. > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > In my opinion, if something core to the project has official > > >> releases, such > > >> > >> > as drivers or operational tooling that people depend on, it > should > > >> also > > >> > >> > support the latest version of Cassandra, on release. It > doesn't > > >> look good > > >> > >> > if we release C* without usable drivers or tooling to operate > it. > > >> It is > > >> > >> > massively deflating to announce we just released 5.0 > (exciting!) > > >> but you > > >> > >> > can't use it for 6 months because you're using analytics lib > and > > >> the people > > >> > >> > that contribute to it has better things to do with their > time. I > > >> think > > >> > >> > part of the obligation of maintaining these projects needs to > be > > >> keeping up > > >> > >> > with latest releases. If that can't be done, we should > continue > > >> to treat > > >> > >> > it as a use-as-your-own-risk thing without official releases. > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > Increasing the size of the ecosystem is challenging... > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > Jon > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 1:21 PM Francisco Guerrero < > > >> fran...@apache.org> > > >> > >> > wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > Hi folks, > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > Thanks for all the input. I'm trying to gather all the > comments, > > >> and from > > >> > >> > > what I > > >> > >> > > can gather it seems that most of the opinions are converging > > >> towards > > >> > >> > > scoping > > >> > >> > > a Sidecar release. These are the items that were called out > that > > >> we will > > >> > >> > > need > > >> > >> > > for a release: > > >> > >> > > - Documentation > > >> > >> > > - Authorization / Authentication > > >> > >> > > - vnode support > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > There are some smaller bug fixes that need to be included > that > > >> we can label > > >> > >> > > as part of the 1.0 release.[1][2][3] > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > If there are any other tasks we need to completed, I > encourage > > >> the > > >> > >> > > community > > >> > >> > > to create JIRAs that can be in the release milestone for the > > >> Sidecar. > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > I agree with Stefan that OpenAPI is desirable. OpenAPI is > > >> something I've > > >> > >> > > been > > >> > >> > > looking into as well. I'm also glad to see Abhijeet can help > > >> with the > > >> > >> > > documentation effort, I can also help on that front. > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > Hopefully, I've captured your comments as truly as possible. > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > Thanks again for all the feedback. > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > Best, > > >> > >> > > - Francisco > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-120 > > >> > >> > > [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-121 > > >> > >> > > [3] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-122 > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > On 2024/10/02 15:29:20 Jon Haddad wrote: > > >> > >> > > > When I developed some of the original sidecar code, it was > > >> based on REST > > >> > >> > > > Easy, which would have allowed us to generate the spec > > >> automatically. I > > >> > >> > > > did this in a similar project. > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > That was removed here: > > >> > >> > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CASSANDRASC-57 > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > But unfortunately it looks like you can't generate the spec > > >> from the > > >> > >> > > code. > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > Disappointing, that functionality was really useful. I > wish > > >> someone had > > >> > >> > > > asked me before gutting it. > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > Jon > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 11:16 AM Štefan Miklošovič < > > >> > >> > > smikloso...@apache.org> > > >> > >> > > > wrote: > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > Something like this: > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > https://instaclustr.github.io/instaclustr-icarus-go-client/ > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 4:54 PM Štefan Miklošovič < > > >> > >> > > smikloso...@apache.org> > > >> > >> > > > > wrote: > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> While documenting endpoints please use something like > > >> OpenAPI > > >> > >> > > > >> specification. The sidecar should expose this document > > >> itself so when > > >> > >> > > I go > > >> > >> > > > >> to this and that URL, I see all endpoints, I put the > > >> payloads / > > >> > >> > > parameters > > >> > >> > > > >> for them and I can just directly call that, no messing > with > > >> curl / > > >> > >> > > wget or > > >> > >> > > > >> programmatically or whatever like that. The barrier to > > >> exercise the > > >> > >> > > basic > > >> > >> > > > >> functionality has to virtually not be there. > > >> > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 4:13 PM Abhijeet Dubey < > > >> > >> > > dubey.abhijee...@gmail.com> > > >> > >> > > > >> wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > >>> Hi folks, > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> I have been using Sidecar recently and have found some > of > > >> its > > >> > >> > > > >>> functionalities to be quite useful. Hari and I are also > > >> working on > > >> > >> > > CEP-40 > > >> > >> > > > >>> which aims to introduce live migration features in > Sidecar > > >> in the > > >> > >> > > > >>> near future. > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> However, as others have mentioned, I agree that it > > >> currently lacks > > >> > >> > > > >>> proper documentation. > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> Since this is an official Apache project, I believe > that > > >> creating > > >> > >> > > > >>> comprehensive documentation would be beneficial. This > > >> documentation > > >> > >> > > should > > >> > >> > > > >>> include an overview, architecture, a list and > description > > >> of various > > >> > >> > > > >>> endpoints, and some examples or tutorials on how to use > > >> Sidecar's > > >> > >> > > features. > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> This documentation would help people get started with > > >> Sidecar and > > >> > >> > > lower > > >> > >> > > > >>> the entry barrier for many. We can update the > documentation > > >> > >> > > incrementally > > >> > >> > > > >>> as needed, along with future enhancements and new > > >> features. However, > > >> > >> > > > >>> creating some form of formal documentation would be > very > > >> helpful. > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> To this end I'm willing and highly interested in > writing > > >> some form of > > >> > >> > > > >>> formal documentation for the Sidecar project. Please > let > > >> me know your > > >> > >> > > > >>> thoughts/opinions on this proposal. > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 6:46 PM Štefan Miklošovič < > > >> > >> > > smikloso...@apache.org> > > >> > >> > > > >>> wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>> Totally agree with Jon here basically on all fronts. > > >> Apache > > >> > >> > > Cassandra > > >> > >> > > > >>>> Sidecar was always a hard nut to crack for me, that is > > >> probably why > > >> > >> > > I have > > >> > >> > > > >>>> not been involved with that a lot even that is a great > > >> tool to have > > >> > >> > > and be > > >> > >> > > > >>>> invested in as I was writing my own sidecar and I > found a > > >> lot of > > >> > >> > > > >>>> similarities and problems Apache's sidecar tries to > fix. > > >> There was > > >> > >> > > some > > >> > >> > > > >>>> invisible barrier I have never managed to jump over. I > > >> was looking > > >> > >> > > around > > >> > >> > > > >>>> and I am very sorry if I just have not found it yet > but > > >> there is > > >> > >> > > not a list > > >> > >> > > > >>>> of endpoints a sidecar has, is there? In readme and > dev > > >> docs there > > >> > >> > > is just > > >> > >> > > > >>>> nothing. Taking it at a face value I just don't know > what > > >> Sidecar is > > >> > >> > > > >>>> capable of and how to use it. I see in the commit > history > > >> there is > > >> > >> > > a bunch > > >> > >> > > > >>>> of commits mentioning S3 but it is a total blackbox > for > > >> me as a > > >> > >> > > potential > > >> > >> > > > >>>> user. > > >> > >> > > > >>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 2:52 PM Jon Haddad < > > >> j...@rustyrazorblade.com> > > >> > >> > > > >>>> wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> I don't think we should release sidecar 1.0 without > any > > >> docs. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> I took a look through the closed JIRAs to see what's > > >> there. Here's > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> what I found, please correct me if there's more: > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> - Lots of stuff related to analytics. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> I would be pretty excited for this, but the analytics > > >> library only > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> works with single token clusters. Most folks don't > run > > >> Cassandra > > >> > >> > > this > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> way. I realize there's some element of everyone > needs > > >> to scratch > > >> > >> > > their own > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> itch, but I don't think we can really call this a > useful > > >> feature > > >> > >> > > if the > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> overwhelming majority of folks can't use it. I've > > >> worked with a > > >> > >> > > couple > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> hundred teams over the years and can only think of 1 > org > > >> outside > > >> > >> > > of Apple > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> and Netflix that used 1 token, and It was a cluster > that > > >> predated > > >> > >> > > v-nodes. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> The analytics repo says it's compatible with > Cassandra > > >> 4, but not > > >> > >> > > 5. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> - Backup & Restore from S3 > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> Is this compatible with other cloud providers or > object > > >> stores? It > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> specifically lists S3 in JIRA. I haven't looked at > the > > >> source > > >> > >> > > yet. Am I > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> correct in reading it supports backing up snapshots, > no > > >> continuous > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> backups? Seems like we should have at least feature > > >> parity with > > >> > >> > > Medusa if > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> we're going to release something here. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> All the other closed JIRAs look related to these two > > >> items. So the > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> question is, are we releasing 1.0 as an limited S3 > > >> backup and > > >> > >> > > restore > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> tool? One that prevents you from upgrading to > Cassandra > > >> 5 if you > > >> > >> > > happen to > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> use single token clusters? > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> Who is the target audience? > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> Jon > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 2:41 AM Dinesh Joshi < > > >> djo...@apache.org> > > >> > >> > > wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> Currently the Sidecar has a lot of functionality > that is > > >> > >> > > immediately > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> usable by the community. Apart from minor fixes, the > > >> AuthN/Z > > >> > >> > > story would be > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> wrapped up soon. Post this, I would propose moving > > >> forward with > > >> > >> > > cutting a > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> release with the existing feature set so we can get > > >> this in the > > >> > >> > > hands of > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> our community. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 8:27 PM guo Maxwell < > > >> cclive1...@gmail.com> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>> Have the same question ： what ‘s the plan ？ > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>> Jeff Jirsa <jji...@gmail.com>于2024年10月2日 > 周三上午10:43写道： > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2024, at 7:26 PM, Josh McKenzie < > > >> jmcken...@apache.org > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> However it is used by a number of other features > as a > > >> dependency > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> such as analytics, backup/restore, repair, > metrics, > > >> and CDC > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> It seems like a natural pressure relief valve for > > >> moving > > >> > >> > > operations > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> out of a core C* node that are well served out of > > >> process. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> Yea, but the point of the foundation is to RELEASE > > >> software for > > >> > >> > > the > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> public good, and the link asserting consensus was > > >> dec2018, so > > >> > >> > > its’ 5.5 > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> years and no releases. > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> What’s the plan here? > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >>> -- > > >> > >> > > > >>> *Abhijeet* > > >> > >> > > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >
