On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 03:59:13PM -0600, Sam Hartman wrote: > >>>>> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez <robe...@debian.org> writes: > Roberto> I can infer that you likely view the current ratio of around 3% > women > Roberto> (33/1004) and around 96% men ((1004-33)/1004) [0] (and, yes, I > recognize > Roberto> that this does not account for gender minority individuals, but > I was > Roberto> not able to locate figures for that group). However, what is not > clear > Roberto> is at what point, in your own view, the situation is imbalanced. > Would > Roberto> you consider 65% men, 25% women, and 10% gender minority to have > an > Roberto> overrepresentation of men? > > Why does it matter? > It seems implausible that we would get from 3% women to a point where > we had a good gender balance in a year? > > So why does the particular threshold matter at all? >
Because underrepresentation of women is not the stated problem. The stated problem is "overrepresentation of males" (according to Andreas) and a lack of "gender diversity" (according to Sruthi), which are rather a different sort of thing. I gave my example as just that. An example of what a clear quantitative statement of the problem/solution might look like. Without a clear statement of the goal, desired, or preferred diversity mix it is not possible to have a discussion about whether any particular proposed policy or program is likely to be beneficial or detrimental. For example, if the goal is to have the population of Debian Developers represent the gender diversity of the general population of the world, then I would argue that we have an overrepresentation of males and likewise an overrepsentation of gender minorities. So, efforts to increase participation specifically by gender minorities would not contribute towards achieving the stated goal and in fact would potentially even be counterproductive. If however, the goal is to have a population of Debian Devlopers with a substantial overrepresentation of gender minority individuals as compared to the proportion of the general population, say 20% of Debian Developers, then the discussion is entirely different. It would be necessary to decide whether the resulting necessary underrepresentation among men and women would be borne by men alone (i.e., we would set a target of 30% men and approximately 50% women) or whether they would share it (i.e., 40/40). And the resulting outreach efforts of the project may end up looking rather different. In any event, it is very obviously a relevant issue, as both candidates mentioned it in their platforms. And both candidates should be able to easily and clearly state something like "as DPL I will support policies that bring the population of Debian Developers towards a composition of X% men, Y% women, and W% gender minority individuals", "as DPL I will support policies to increase the number of gender minority DDs by Z%", or something along those lines. Sam, you argue that we can't achieve the goal, but nobody has even quantified what the goal is. Besides, if the issue is that the candidates are uncomfortable setting goals that cannot be achieved during a single term, then fine. Set goals that can be achieved in a single term and let's work toward them. But for goodness sake, they need to say what the goals are or else we are just talking circles. I find it rather frustrating that both candidates have essentially stated "this is a problem" and when asked "please use quantifiable terms to describe a particular state where this is no longer a problem" one candidate refused and the other simply did not respond. This makes me gravely concerned for the Debian project and quality of leadership that it can expect going forward. So, I repeat my question to the candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and metrics? Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez
