On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 02:18:37PM +0200, Simmel wrote:
> Hi Pete :-)
>
> >
> > Personally I like the current Woody installer :-)
>
> I dislike the old and miserable/poor look of it, reminds me of old dos boxes
> or a blue screen :-)
> I dislike the poor information you sometimes get out of it (not true for
> every inst. step though)
>
> > I find it quick and easy to use - runs nicely on older
> > hardware due to not
> > having the overhead of any kind of GUI.
>
> You got me there, keep the old look for old systems, bring up a new look for
> new systems with 128mb gfx memory, a nice optical mouse and enough sys mem
> to run 15 xservers at a time.........
I don't mean this to sound rude, but it probably will do. If you need
it and no-one else is willing to do it, we look forward to submission of
your patch. If no-one else is willing to devote resources to it, then
take a step back and ask why.
Also, please note that Debian doesn't only run on PC's, which makes the
install significantly more complex under the bonnet.
> > If you are only brought up in the GUI world of Windows, then
> > I guess it will
> > be a little disconcerting at first, but it's not hard to pick up.
> >
>
> No I'm not I used VC20, C64, Amiga500, HP-UX Systems, Macintosh, PPC and
> PC's... but I'm glad that we have such powerful systems now, so why stick to
> the old crap?
Because the old crap works, and is quick and functional. Bloating the
OS to fit into newer systems is much more of a MS approach.
> > At least the task selector and dselect do a good job of resolving any
> > dependancies whilst installing - I have had loads of problems
> > with Red Hat
> > (although I have not installed it recently) and broken packages due to
> > missing libraries etc.
> >
>
> I don't argue only on the functionality I argue on the looks. I never used
> dselect because I still fear doing something wrong. I'm a little bit angry
> when I know that on other systems like rh I simply press the mouse button
> and i can (de)select packages without writing down 10 fancy keystrokes, this
> is too time consuming. Reminds me of my first experiences with vi. Time is
> an issue and also the easy-to-install thing. So whenever dselect pops up and
> asks if it should be run I'm like "HELL NO!!!"
>
> At the moment I even won't use tasksel but only install basic system and
> then run the apt-get. But remember, I'm talking about the first experience
> with debian, not people like you who are used to it.
Perhaps you should try aptitude. Lots of people don't use tasksel or
dselect after install, or ever. Aptitude has a GUI, and can be run from
the command line like apt-get.
> May sound lazy too, and yes I'm a lazy guy. If my boss tells me to setup an
> apache server and tells me to use debian because the cust would like to have
> especially this distri well heck I'm stuck in the installation routine for
> hours trying to figure out how dselect works. GREAT :-( And the main part,
> installing apache, isn't even done yet (this was my first experience with
> Debian). I know to work with apache, but I don'T know how to install Debian,
> never seen it before. First time I saw RH and SuSe using X-Server installs I
> was like YES M$ gets their ASS kicked, this is almost too simple! Everybody
> can handle that easily!
Different people have different criteria for what constitutes an
arse-kicking. Some people want more bells and whistles, some want
reliability etc.
> > Also, how many people in the Windows world actually install
> > their own OS? I
> > suspect *most* buy a computer with it pre-installed, or take
> > it to a shop
> > for upgrades - the few that do it themsleves would have
> > little problem with
> > the current installation of Debian.
> > Without wishing to sound too evangelical, I have had fewer
> > issues installing
> > Debian on a variety of hardware than I have had installing
> > Windows - in
> > fact, my main workstation refuses to run with Windows 2000,
> > so has a nice
> > copy of Woody + backports instead.
>
> I install every system on my own and I doubt that someone like my sister
> would be able to do a successfull installtion with debian and X. But she
> succesfully reinstalled win2000 on her own, without me even knowing it....
> sorry you can't seriously tell me that it's simpler to install debian then
> wintendo, ah c'mooooooooon ;o) (we don't have to talk about the os itself,
> I'm on your side I hate this crash and burn system ;-)
>
> And to get away from M$ ("winzigweich") you should try a RH and SuSe install
> and then judge for yourself..... which install looks nicer? which installer
> is simpler to use for the average user? which installer has tons of
> information on any subject you can click with your mouse?
>
> but when it comes to the question which distri is the better one, I'm the
> first one screaming DEBIAN, because it's a hell of a distri, but still the
> installer is a thorn in my eye.... and as I remember there was an article
> posted recently, and the guy there also said that the installer is crappy,
> I'd have to agree here....
>
> To make this ONTOPIC again, THEREFORE I wrote my mail to all of you and I
> think if you see this from the User's view without any politics in it, just
> count the facts, the debian installer looks like a golden girl amongst
> teenagers....... and also the debian distribution looks "old-fashioned"
> then, for people who are not willing to spend hours just to get it
> installed..... and that's a shame, because the spirit behind this whole
> project is really really good...
Working on beautifying something that is rarely used is possibly not the
best use of resources. If you disagree, like I said before, then please
contribute your resources! :)
A
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