-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 07/06/2014 09:54 AM, Martin Read wrote:
> On 06/07/14 00:10, The Wanderer wrote: >> Can you run logind without systemd or journald? > > If you have something else that provides the systemd interfaces > logind depends on, you can run logind (and timedated, localed, and > hostnamed) without using systemd as PID 1. This is what the > systemd-shim project is intended to allow (but see below). So in other words, at least as far as the systemd project itself is concerned, you can't. (I'm assuming systemd-shim is not a product of the systemd project, since that project's developers seem entirely content with just the main implementation and it seems unlikely they would want to host two parallel implementations of the same interfaces in the same collection of projects.) Also, I wasn't talking about running logind without systemd "as PID 1", although of course that's a major consideration; I was talking about running logind with systemd possibly not even present on the system at all. I.e., completely independent components, which may simply be able to interact with and enhance one another. >> Can you run journald without systemd or logind? > > I don't know. The question seems somewhat moot to me, since I've seen > people who like systemd in principle but think journald is a > terrible idea, but I don't think I've seen someone who likes journald > but thinks systemd is a terrible idea. The question isn't about what someone necessarily wants to do, but about whether systemd et al. are monolithic or (independently) modular. systemd's advocates claim that it is highly modular, and (to quote from this very thread) "anything but monolithic". If the various components of systemd are independently modular, than each one can run - possibly, though it would be to be hoped not, with degraded functionality - without any of the others present. If they cannot do so, then they are not independently modular - and, by implication, are at least partially monolithic. >> If you can, then why is it that libpam package dependencies which >> appear (if I've understood the discussion correctly) to be about >> functionality now provided by logind are pulling in systemd *as the >> active init system* automatically? > > There appear to be two facets to this: > > First, the dependency on systemd's interfaces is expressed as a > Depends entry of the form "systemd-sysv | systemd-shim", so as I > understand it "install systemd-sysv" ends up being the default method > of resolving the dependency because it's the first entry in the > alternation. > > Second, logind >= 205 has a further interface dependency on systemd > (logind <= 204 sets up cgroups by itself; logind >= 205 relies on > systemd >= 205 to do it) which the current version of systemd-shim > does not yet fulfill: > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=752939 Which seems to indicate that far from being non-monolithic, systemd et al. are moving towards being *more* so, by making something that previously was capable of running independently no longer capable of doing so. (As far as I can tell, logind itself exists only as the binary 'systemd-logind', which is packaged as part of the systemd package rather than in its own logind or systemd-logind package. The same sort of thing appears to be true of journald, hostnamed, localed, shutdownd, and timedated, the latter four of which I hadn't even heard of. That's another aspect of the "can't get one without the others" factor which is what leads people to describe systemd as monolithic.) This type of change gets made in the name of tighter integration and increased efficiency, and it probably does provide that. But it does so at the expense of decreased modularity and interchangeability, and makes the system as a whole more monolithic - with all the negatives that implies. (I have further discussion and possibly argument on the topic of init-system-related dependencies, which does relate to the modularity vs. monolithism argument, but I've deleted it here as being a distraction from that main topic.) - -- The Wanderer Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny. A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJTuWgCAAoJEASpNY00KDJr5xQP/iHItpLpqmXM4Cb4afEGiOpP VTXf0ZXoZNV7jSVROLrMdgOBw1zXIFMD91nqJdHKzvIL/g6S8DZ5sFx3fZrPUmBD 7OUNQnCVqj0T6IJn0xuE7CJ/OUhEpwBCqMwNDUmlMhSx/D+LeSutuWytL6hcNdxn SgLFGah+1dYUJO/3uXCKTKIbRPpQrX2f0mvaad+7D2KImBnZ16s8CycMvVnX5HX6 I5rOcsm+P2JNxPStaF+6qhdHdR6KKs7z/1WLZRavhgr1Qiqe09JE+1N0K+G3OwMh 9bAjQgSXpd8JPRtTPtxPz2qg1Nhpp7S7udnx96cfVgyHu/9sob+Rzvij/N6lwLv2 Vm2WnHiPSWtUiWUIGe6Lnw0P8/PL33CCsJe3aJRQZQesKfNoLRmEFIBAbVslAXgD Iu2ipPLnwOogATNt7om6TXCGE5j9Qyc68Y3nrHn/tcEBW8yKsKamamUMkoj8Nskr TGIYOSWB7HuP7mBoC6GgYbRksKs5s3GLP01LUANo2ftADgDOiA/AT8tRaJ0Yoej1 RsaJqA7O31/1h3W8uj9mVBPXUeZ9+xIJQAKbKb+b1hRZdQ5p7DjMVeS8GVNxBUcU WhLShD1amGrDfgT4o9QFt6BQLAQ8ybtPFB7L9Q3bJN5Xm7JDbrSTzphC2GD/Rgga MDepvlLw/EzpSRhNaRtY =rz7j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". 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