Ted, please, take this somewhere else. In the past days this debate has filled up my mailbox - if I wanted such a debate I would have turned on the TV or done something similar. I subscribed to this list for debian security reasons, not to read lamentations and political views. pls, pls, pls, no more. I suspect it took you some time to write what you wrote below and I suspect that your time could be used more productively.
With respect, Ognen On Tue, 11 Mar 2003, Ted Parvu wrote: > Hello Debian Community! > > I had hoped to hear from you, and hear from us we have. I look forward > to hearing from more of you around our world. I would like to address > some of the issues about this thread being off topic. > > The debian-security list is an open, unmoderated, list created with the > intent of serving as a platform for discussion of security issues to the > greater Debian community, that is you and I folks. For those of you who > keep screaming off topic there is no great moderator in the sky to call > upon to zap this thread. To the naysayers, remember no ONE person > speaks for the Debian community. If this thread were not of interest to > the community, we would let it die. > > What is so wonderful about the Open Source movement in general and the > Debian community in particular, is that no one person speaks for the > community. Debian is not ruled by a hierarchy, but rather a heterarchy. > A true heterarchy is a self organizing system where no one member has > any more authority than the next. There are no leaders. > > There are various levels of heterarchy in existence in the Open Source > movement. For example Linus wields a fair amount of authority over what > does and what does not go into the kernel. While the Debian community > is considerably more "open". A heterarchal system can also be used on a > macroscopic scale while allowing the subsystems that comprise the > macroscopic system to organize in a manner of their own choosing. > > The Internet is an example of a macroscopic system such as this. At the > macro level the Internet is more or less a heterarchy, yet each > individual subsystem in the Internet is free to organize as it wishes. > There are certain rules that each subsystem needs to play by in order to > be a part of the Internet but these rules are organized, created, and > abandoned by the individual members that comprise the greater system. > > So what does any of this have to do with the world's new war and more > importantly with debian security? Allow me to posit that wars are a > product of hierarchal systems. War is seldom, if ever, in the best > interests of the people who die and are mutilated in them. Wars are > almost always in the interests of those at the top of the hierarchy at > the expense of those at the base of the pyramid. Those leaders may use > various means to convince the masses that war is in their best interest > but since they almost never are, these means are almost always > deceptions. > > Fine, but why the Debian community? What other world wide community of > system level thinkers who have been practicing government, or if you > like non-government, by consensus do you know of? There probably are > others but this is the only one of which I am a member. How many > communities do you know of that can grasp what I am saying in a few > short paragraphs? We in the Open Source community have been practicing, > to great success, self organization by consensus. > > If we the people are ever going to live in a world of peace, and the > costs of war are and will continue to become increasingly devastating, > we must rid ourselves of our so called leaders. Their interests are > simply not ours. The members of the Debian community have been > simultaneously the benefactors and beneficiaries of a heterarchal > system. But can it work in the real world? > > It can and has. The following is from this fascinating treatise > entitled "The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on > Earth". > > http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/ > > ------- > > "The people of the Six Nations, also known by the French term, Iroquois > Confederacy, call themselves the Hau de no sau nee (ho dee noe sho nee) > or People of the Longhouse. Located in the northeastern region of North > America, originally the Six Nations was five and included the Mohawks, > Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas. The sixth nation, the > Tuscaroras, migrated into Iroquois country in the early eighteenth > century. Together these peoples comprise the oldest living participatory > democracy on earth. Their story, and governance truly based on the > consent of the governed, contains a great deal of life-promoting > intelligence for those of us not familiar with this area of American > history. The original United States representative democracy, fashioned > by such central authors as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, drew > much inspiration from this confederacy of nations. In our present day, > we can benefit immensely, in our quest to establish anew a government > truly dedicated to all life's liberty and happiness much as has been > practiced by the Six Nations for over 800 hundred years." > > -------- > > > I would now like to demonstrate consensus in action. I have heard and > respect the voices of the community that cry, "off topic!". I ask that > you hear and respect the voices of the community who want to discuss > these issues. I propose that we label the subjects of these > non-traditional threads with prefix of "OT:". This will allow the > members of the community who do not wish to participate to easily filter > these conversations out. "OT" can stand for "off topic", "on topic", > "off traditional", or whatever the reader wishes it to mean. > > I am not a leader. People will choose to do this or they will not. > Even if people adopt this process, if at some point in the future it > stops making sense, people will stop using it. It is that simple. > > We will self organize based upon our self interests. Our levels of > consensus on any given issue will vary from agreement, to > non-participation, to active opposition. That is how it works. You are > always free to leave the community. If you decide you no longer like > Debian, then move to Red Hat or whatever. > > I would like to close with a quote; > > > > "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, > begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. > Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. > > Through violence you may murder the liar, > but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. > Through violence you may murder the hater, > but you do not murder hate. > > In fact, violence merely increases hate. > So it goes. > Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, > adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. > > Darkness cannot drive out darkness: > only light can do that. > Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." > > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. > > > > > Peace > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > WAR IS PEACE > FREEDOM IS SLAVERY > IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
