On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 04:04:52PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de> writes: > > On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 03:34:08PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > > >> At this point, the single most annoying thing about systemd is the > >> people who are advocating it on debian-devel at every opportunity and > >> seem incapable of shutting up about it for more than a week, even > >> though the repeated conversations are both useless to the project as a > >> whole and don't vary with repetition. > > > And for me, the most annoying thing is the neverending circlejerk of > > systemd bashing on a non-technical basis. > > This is something that you're all (collectively) enabling via your > behavior of constantly repeating the same arguments. Someone has to stop. > Preferrably everyone at once.
Why should my chain of arguments change? If it constantly changed all the time, it would mean I'm not really having any arguments but I just want to win the discussion. This is not my point, I'm just trying to explain the sceptics that most of their fears are simply unjustified. > > If anyone of these people would really take the time to read into the > > design rationales of the available init systems (upstart, systemd, > > sysvinit, openrc), look at the popularity and the amount of > > contributors, the decision would be far easier to make. > > This is the key point: WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE A DECISION RIGHT NOW. We > simply are not. It doesn't matter how many messages you write to > debian-devel, what arguments you muster, and what evidence you have: this > decision will not be made right at this moment, in the middle of a release > freeze, prior to completing the Policy work for even testing a migration > to systemd. Hey, you don't need to be yelling at me, I didn't kick off the discussion. I am perfectly fine with the current situation. And you don't need to enlighten me on the release policy, I am very much aware that we're in freeze. At no point did I say we have to decide something now. I merely said that we certainly shouldn't wait forever. Again, I didn't bring up the discussion, so please don't focus on me. > It's absolutely impossible that any firm decision will be made at any time > before the wheezy release is complete. I think it's rather unlikely until > we have a clear policy for how people should add systemd support in their > packages and those package maintainers who chose to do so have started to > enable it. (I think we're actually fairly close to such a policy, but > it's not formalized yet.) Yes, I am aware of the situation. > Therefore, every time you continue to argue about this on debian-devel, > the *only* thing that you are accomplishing is to feed what you accurately > describe as a never-ending circlejerk, by providing it with more material, > more ammunition, more fodder for the discussion to continue and continue > and continue. > > This is all equally true of the people who hate systemd. Phew, I already feared I would have to take all the blame :). > It would also be true of the people who advocate upstart or OpenRC, except > you'll notice that they've largely stopped discussing the topic except > when they can't stop themselves from rebutting some specific technical > point. That's wise. It's worthy of emulation. I don't think there are particular people to blame. The unwillingness to stop discussing the topic comes from both sides. But as long as we treat each other respectfully, I still think it's ok to be discussed. It's not that I am not willing to learn. I'm always willing to give in with my argumentation if someone actually comes up with valid counterarguments (with what Harald Jenny said, for example). > Please, let's *stop talking about this*, apart from the much more > specific, straightforward, and *useful* discussion of what further work is > required to enable those who wish to do so to run systemd as their init > process in Debian. Sure, I would love to switch the topic :). Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121130002017.ga23...@physik.fu-berlin.de
