> WHOOPS, SORRY. Meant to delete this old draft, not send it. > The issue is valid, but sorry for incomplete mail. > > On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 04:48:01PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:23:38AM +0200, Philipp Kern wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 12:38:42PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote: > > > > > Which wm does that? I know it isn't gnome-shell at least, as I've > > > > > been using it quite successfully without nm installed. > > > > > > > > Have you tried to use evolution without NM? > > > > Evolution seems to work just fine. > > > > > I didn't try but it only suggests network-manager. However some > > > applications do behave weird if you just deinstalled n-m (pidgin for > > > instance), because they assume that you're not connected. After a > > > reboot (maybe dbus restart is enough) they certainly connect again, > > > though. > > > > I tested a good part of Gnome today without n-m and it appears there are > > no regressions at all. The only differences are: > > > > * it gets rid of n-m icon in the systray (duh) > > [was incomplete] > * "network settings" deep in the control panel will say the networking on > this system is not compatible > > > Since n-m breaks actually working software (udev, ifupdown) for non-obscure > uses (connecting a phone via USB, bridged setups, non-basic VPNs, etc), a > desktop environment hard-depending on it is bad, and this really needs to > be a Recommends: relationship instead. > > N-M compared to ifupdown: > * makes things easier for new users (good! especially in a default install) > * is said to make wifi easier (when it works...) > And downsides: > * breaks usb0 completely (keeps raising and lowering the interface in a > loop, no apparent way to tell it to keep its grubby hands away) > * breaks a load of complex setups > > "Breaks unrelated software" on the system is a RC severity, and there's no > way one can say a windowing environment is related to core networking. > Thus, I'd say, #542095 needs to be upgraded -- and changing Depends: to > Recommends: is a non-intrusive fix. It will cause n-m to be installed > unless explicitely refused, just like you want it to be. > > On the other hand, breaking such setups is not a RC bug in n-m. Like any > non-core package, there is no requirement for it to be universal: > * not working with complex setups is at most wishlist > * breaking USB networking by flipping the interface is normal > It's just gnome-meta hard-depending on it what's wrong.
First of all I'm not a DD but just a Maintainer of 2 packages and a long time user. Since I fled away from KDE and felt into Gnome in Debian, I'm using it without N-M installed. It is only a matter of dpkg -force-depends -P two packages every time aptitude "corrects" my system when I install something, and I must say I'm more than happy by not having N-M: nothing messes with my network configuration (which is non-standard) and also users (my wife, or even myself using my normal account) can not disable networking nor break it. I have not tried Evolution (I use kmail even in Gnome and my wife uses Icedove) but I can say that Pidgin works better without N-M than with it. Regards (and thanks for all the time you spend that makes Debian my distro of choice)
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