Hi, Samuel Thibault <sthiba...@debian.org> wrote (Tue, 8 Aug 2023 00:14:11 +0200): > Hello, > > This looks reasonable, thanks!
Now pushed to git. thanks > Samuel > > Holger Wansing, le mar. 08 août 2023 00:06:14 +0200, a ecrit: > > Hi again, > > > > Samuel Thibault <sthiba...@debian.org> wrote (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 14:32:22 > > +0200): > > > Holger Wansing, le sam. 05 août 2023 20:46:27 +0200, a ecrit: > > > > Now looking in the doc source, I see that the "780MB" value from above > > > > is > > > > architecture-dependent too. > > > > > > Ah, yes, that's part of the lowmem testing. > > > > > > > While 780MB seems realistic for amd64 to me, I wonder if the other > > > > values can > > > > be up-to-date: > > > > > > > > amd64:minimum_memory=780 > > > > arm64:minimum_memory=260 > > > > armel:minimum_memory=80 > > > > armhf:minimum_memory=190 > > > > i386:minimum_memory=485 > > > > mips:minimum_memory=85 > > > > mips64el:minimum_memory=345 > > > > mipsel:minimum_memory=170 > > > > ppc64el:minimum_memory=64 > > > > s390x:minimum_memory=44 > > > > > > > > In the most eye-catching case of s390x, my proposal would mean, to > > > > change > > > > the value in the guide from 44 to 512MB ! > > > > That leads to the question, if the new situation after my changing > > > > would be > > > > wrong, or if the doc was wrong in the past? > > > > > > The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated, > > > because we don't have people who both care about updating them, and have > > > access to the hardware or know the qemu tricks to test all archs. > > > > > > I see that in the lowmem package, > > > bbb4ed4c4da20d585cf30ceba9f0987173d3ac70 raised the default levels from > > > 32MB/64MB to 120MB/155MB, that being the minimum numbers that were > > > actually seen to work on at least some arch. > > > > Ok, I have now included those changes into my patch, to get the numbers > > up-to-date for all archs. > > > > That is: > > > > amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350 > > amd64:minimum_memory=780 > > > > arm64:minimum_memory_strict=245 > > arm64:minimum_memory=260 > > > > armel:minimum_memory_strict=140 > > armel:minimum_memory=190 > > > > armhf:minimum_memory_strict=140 > > armhf:minimum_memory=190 > > > > i386:minimum_memory_strict=285 > > i386:minimum_memory=485 > > > > mips64el:minimum_memory_strict=200 > > mips64el:minimum_memory=345 > > > > mipsel:minimum_memory_strict=160 > > mipsel:minimum_memory=170 > > > > ppc64el:minimum_memory_strict=256 > > ppc64el:minimum_memory=500 > > > > s390x:minimum_memory_strict=120 > > s390x:minimum_memory=155 > > > > See patch. > > > > > > > > And, if a generic value for all archs is realistic and makes sense at > > > > all? > > > > > > Probably not, as seen in the values in the lowmem package. > > > > I think I found a reasonable solution. > > > > Current situation is: > > > > We have two sorts of numbers for RAM size: > > > > a) some kind of rough values, identical for all archs. These are just > > subjective values, rounded up to the next bigger RAM modules you can buy > > (current values can be found in > > "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements" at > > https://d-i.debian.org/manual/en.amd64/ch03s04.html ) > > These are only rough recommendations, as in "we **recommend** X MB". > > And this chapter 3.4 also mentions, that these recommendations can well > > be > > underrun by the second sort of values: > > b) these are values based on meassurements during lowmem testing. They are > > different over the archs, and in the current text they are considered as > > some kind of strict requirement, as in "you **need** at least X MB" > > values. > > --> Compare this to the "we **recommend** X MB" values from a) ! > > > > > > > > > > Taking all this as a basis, I would like to propose the following: > > > > > > 1. in chapter 2 > > (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch02s05.html) > > which is about hardware requirements, just mention the minimal rough > > recommended values from a) which says something like "512MB" or "1GB", > > corresponding to RAM modules available from your favorite hardware store. > > > > 2. People who want to try to go with lower values, are guided to > > chapter 3 > > (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch03s04.html), > > where they find the values from b) based on lowmem tests, which contain > > the "absolute minimum values", drawing the baseline that cannot be > > underrun. > > Note, that this page is different, depending on arch! > > > > 3. Move all the constraints / advanced infos like > > - installer should automatically do memory-saving tricks on low-memory > > systems" > > - warning, when lowmem levels are untested for some archs > > - note, that graphical installer images need more RAM > > from chapter 2 to 3, where they fit better: That's not hardware (which > > would > > be chapter 2), but how the software deals with the available hardware (so > > that's chapter 3). > > > > 4. I moved the values for "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System > > Requirements" > > from hardcoded values to entities, to ease changings on this in the > > future > > (especially when looking at translations). > > > > 5. I bumped the recommended RAM size values from a) > > from > > 256MB (minimum) + 512MB (recommended) > > to > > 512MB (minimum) + 1G (recommended) > > > > > > > > All the resulting html files, separated for all archs can be found on > > https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/ > > > > The interesting chapters are "Memory and Disk Space Requirements" in > > chapter 2 > > and "Meeting Minimum Hardware Requirements" in chapter 3. > > > > > > Sorry, if this is kind of a chaotic thread; the issue grew bigger than I > > had expected. > > > > > > > > Holger > > > > > > -- > > Holger Wansing <hwans...@mailbox.org> > > PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076 > > > diff --git a/build/arch-options/armel b/build/arch-options/armel > > index d17df5114..1598edb87 100644 > > --- a/build/arch-options/armel > > +++ b/build/arch-options/armel > > @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@ > > > > # Note that we keep "arm" as archspec (and thus also for conditions) > > # and also continue to use "arm" for arch-specific XML-files in order > > # to minimize impact on translations. > > > > archspec="arm;armel;not-x86;not-s390;not-powerpc" > > arch_listname="arm" > > arch_porturl="arm" > > # TODO: update > > # This is coming from the lowmem package > > -minimum_memory_strict=32 > > +minimum_memory_strict=140 > > # This is coming from the lowmem package > > -minimum_memory=80 > > +minimum_memory=190 > > # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below > > smp_config_section="N/A" > > smp_config_option="N/A" > > > > # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition' > > # in the build scripts > > fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt" > > network="supports-tftp;supports-rarp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot" > > boot="" > > frontend="newt;not-gtk" > > diff --git a/build/arch-options/ppc64el b/build/arch-options/ppc64el > > index 2162cac4f..f07eb97de 100644 > > --- a/build/arch-options/ppc64el > > +++ b/build/arch-options/ppc64el > > @@ -1,22 +1,22 @@ > > # This file contains architecture specific variables for > > # the 'ppc64el' architecture > > # It is sourced by the build scripts > > > > archspec="ppc64el;not-s390;not-x86" > > arch_listname="powerpc" > > arch_porturl="powerpc" > > # TODO: update > > # This is coming from the lowmem package > > -minimum_memory_strict=32 > > +minimum_memory_strict=256 > > # This is coming from the lowmem package > > -minimum_memory=64 > > +minimum_memory=500 > > # This is coming from the rootskel package, S60frontend > > minimum_memory_gtk=800 > > # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below > > smp_config_section="Processor support" > > smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support" > > > > # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition' > > # in the build scripts > > fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt" > > network="supports-tftp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot" > > diff --git a/build/arch-options/s390x b/build/arch-options/s390x > > index 7dcac7a73..8647fcc71 100644 > > --- a/build/arch-options/s390x > > +++ b/build/arch-options/s390x > > @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@ > > > > # Note that we keep "s390" as archspec (and thus also for conditions) > > # and also continue to use "s390" for arch-specific XML-files in order > > # to minimize impact on translations. > > > > archspec="s390;not-powerpc;not-x86" > > arch_listname="s390" > > arch_porturl="s390" > > # TODO: update > > # This is coming from the lowmem package > > -minimum_memory_strict=32 > > +minimum_memory_strict=120 > > # This is coming from the lowmem package > > -minimum_memory=44 > > +minimum_memory=155 > > # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below > > smp_config_section="Processor type and features" > > smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support" > > > > # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition' > > # in the build scripts > > fdisk="fdasd.txt;dasdfmt.txt" > > network="" > > boot="" > > frontend="not-newt;not-gtk" > > diff --git a/build/entities/common.ent b/build/entities/common.ent > > index 1e58745e1..f7b7f774c 100644 > > --- a/build/entities/common.ent > > +++ b/build/entities/common.ent > > @@ -59,30 +59,39 @@ > > <!ENTITY escapekey "<keycap>Esc</keycap>"> > > <!ENTITY tabkey "<keycap>Tab</keycap>"> > > <!ENTITY spacekey "<keycap>Space</keycap>"> > > <!ENTITY shiftkey "<keycap>Shift</keycap>"> > > <!ENTITY MSG-YES "<userinput>Yes</userinput>"> > > <!ENTITY MSG-NO "<userinput>No</userinput>"> > > <!ENTITY BTN-CONT "<guibutton>Continue</guibutton>"> > > <!ENTITY BTN-CANCEL "<guibutton>Cancel</guibutton>"> > > <!ENTITY BTN-GOBACK "<guibutton>Go Back</guibutton>"> > > > > -<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' --> > > +<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' and 'gigabytes' --> > > <!ENTITY notation-megabytes "MB"> > > +<!ENTITY notation-gigabytes "GB"> > > + > > +<!-- generic RAM / harddisk size recommendations for all archs --> > > +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum "512¬ation-megabytes;"> > > +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend "1¬ation-gigabytes;"> > > +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-hd "4¬ation-gigabytes;"> > > +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum "1¬ation-gigabytes;"> > > +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend "2¬ation-gigabytes;"> > > +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-hd "10¬ation-gigabytes;"> > > > > <!-- minimum hard disk size for base system --> > > <!-- As measured just before reboot (i.e. before the cleanup script drops > > .debs), plus some margin. This is also approximately the used size after > > cleanup, plus minimal ~150MB work space included. > > Also update the value in debian-installer/build/boot/x86/f2.txt > > --> > > -<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "1160¬ation-megabytes;"> > > +<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "&ref-no-desktop-hd;"> > > > > <!-- > > Size of install as used in appendix/files.xml; all values based on amd64. > > > > To determine the size of the base system and tasks, start with a default > > installation: > > - having removed /usr/lib/finish-install.d/08hw-detect to avoid installing > > qemu-guest-agent which pulls glib+perl+icu > > - in English > > - with use of network mirror > > diff --git a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > > b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > > index 10f074738..eae24c6ff 100644 > > --- a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > > +++ b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > > @@ -1,48 +1,15 @@ > > <!-- retain these comments for translator revision tracking --> > > <!-- $Id$ --> > > > > <sect1 id="memory-disk-requirements"> > > <title>Memory and Disk Space Requirements</title> > > > > <para> > > > > -You must have at least &minimum-memory; of memory and &minimum-fs-size; > > -of hard disk space to perform a normal installation. Note that these are > > -fairly minimal numbers. For more realistic figures, see > > +We recommend at least &ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum; of memory and > > &minimum-fs-size; > > +of hard disk space to perform an installation. For more detailed values, > > see > > <xref linkend="minimum-hardware-reqts"/>. > > > > -</para><para> > > - > > -The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be > > able to > > -run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested > > -it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the > > -<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> > > boot > > -parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and > > -<xref linkend="installer-args"/>). > > - > > -</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para> > > - > > -On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic > > detection > > -is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to > > pass the > > -boot parameter if your system has little memory. > > - > > -</para></warning><para> > > - > > -Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk"> > > - > > -<para> > > - > > -Installation images that support the graphical installer require more > > -memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should > > -not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If > > -there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical > > installer, > > -the former should be selected on such systems. > > - > > -</para> > > - > > -</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for > > -experienced users. > > - > > </para> > > > > </sect1> > > diff --git a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > > b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > > index eb36bb9ce..076c65791 100644 > > --- a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > > +++ b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > > @@ -38,48 +38,80 @@ Any OldWorld or NewWorld PowerPC can serve well as a > > desktop system. > > <entry>Install Type</entry> > > <entry>RAM (minimum)</entry> > > <entry>RAM (recommended)</entry> > > <entry>Hard Drive</entry> > > </row> > > </thead> > > > > <tbody> > > <row> > > <entry>No desktop</entry> > > - <entry>256 megabytes</entry> > > - <entry>512 megabytes</entry> > > - <entry>4 gigabytes</entry> > > + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry> > > + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry> > > + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-hd;</entry> > > </row><row arch="not-s390"> > > <entry>With Desktop</entry> > > - <entry>1 gigabytes</entry> > > - <entry>2 gigabytes</entry> > > - <entry>10 gigabytes</entry> > > + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry> > > + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry> > > + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-hd;</entry> > > </row> > > > > </tbody></tgroup></table> > > > > <para> > > > > The minimum values assumes that swap will be enabled and a non-liveCD > > image is used. > > -The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the non-graphical > > (text-based) > > -installer is used. > > +The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the text-based installer > > +(not the graphical one) is used. > > > > </para><para> > > > > The actual minimum memory requirements are a lot less than the numbers > > listed in this table. With swap enabled, it is possible to > > install &debian; with as little as &minimum-memory-strict;. > > The same goes for the disk space requirements, especially if you > > pick and choose which applications to install; see > > <xref linkend="tasksel-size-list"/> for additional information on disk > > space requirements. > > > > +</para><para> > > + > > +The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be > > able to > > +run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested > > +it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the > > +<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> > > boot > > +parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and > > +<xref linkend="installer-args"/>). > > + > > +</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para> > > + > > +On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic > > detection > > +is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to > > pass the > > +boot parameter if your system has little memory. > > + > > +</para></warning><para> > > + > > +Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk"> > > + > > +<para> > > + > > +Installation images that support the graphical installer require more > > +memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should > > +not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If > > +there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical > > installer, > > +the former should be selected on such systems. > > + > > +</para> > > + > > +</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for > > +experienced users. > > + > > </para><para arch="not-s390"> > > > > It is possible to run a graphical desktop environment on older or > > low-end systems, but in that case it is recommended to install > > a window manager that is less resource-hungry than those of the > > GNOME or KDE Plasma desktop environments; alternatives include > > <classname>xfce4</classname>, <classname>icewm</classname> and > > <classname>wmaker</classname>, but there are others to choose from. > > > > </para><para> > > > -- > Samuel > --- > Pour une évaluation indépendante, transparente et rigoureuse ! > Je soutiens la Commission d'Évaluation de l'Inria. > -- Holger Wansing <hwans...@mailbox.org> PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076
