Hello, This looks reasonable, thanks!
Samuel Holger Wansing, le mar. 08 août 2023 00:06:14 +0200, a ecrit: > Hi again, > > Samuel Thibault <sthiba...@debian.org> wrote (Sun, 6 Aug 2023 14:32:22 +0200): > > Holger Wansing, le sam. 05 août 2023 20:46:27 +0200, a ecrit: > > > Now looking in the doc source, I see that the "780MB" value from above is > > > architecture-dependent too. > > > > Ah, yes, that's part of the lowmem testing. > > > > > While 780MB seems realistic for amd64 to me, I wonder if the other values > > > can > > > be up-to-date: > > > > > > amd64:minimum_memory=780 > > > arm64:minimum_memory=260 > > > armel:minimum_memory=80 > > > armhf:minimum_memory=190 > > > i386:minimum_memory=485 > > > mips:minimum_memory=85 > > > mips64el:minimum_memory=345 > > > mipsel:minimum_memory=170 > > > ppc64el:minimum_memory=64 > > > s390x:minimum_memory=44 > > > > > > In the most eye-catching case of s390x, my proposal would mean, to change > > > the value in the guide from 44 to 512MB ! > > > That leads to the question, if the new situation after my changing would > > > be > > > wrong, or if the doc was wrong in the past? > > > > The doc probably just ended up wrong by just not getting updated, > > because we don't have people who both care about updating them, and have > > access to the hardware or know the qemu tricks to test all archs. > > > > I see that in the lowmem package, > > bbb4ed4c4da20d585cf30ceba9f0987173d3ac70 raised the default levels from > > 32MB/64MB to 120MB/155MB, that being the minimum numbers that were > > actually seen to work on at least some arch. > > Ok, I have now included those changes into my patch, to get the numbers > up-to-date for all archs. > > That is: > > amd64:minimum_memory_strict=350 > amd64:minimum_memory=780 > > arm64:minimum_memory_strict=245 > arm64:minimum_memory=260 > > armel:minimum_memory_strict=140 > armel:minimum_memory=190 > > armhf:minimum_memory_strict=140 > armhf:minimum_memory=190 > > i386:minimum_memory_strict=285 > i386:minimum_memory=485 > > mips64el:minimum_memory_strict=200 > mips64el:minimum_memory=345 > > mipsel:minimum_memory_strict=160 > mipsel:minimum_memory=170 > > ppc64el:minimum_memory_strict=256 > ppc64el:minimum_memory=500 > > s390x:minimum_memory_strict=120 > s390x:minimum_memory=155 > > See patch. > > > > > And, if a generic value for all archs is realistic and makes sense at all? > > > > Probably not, as seen in the values in the lowmem package. > > I think I found a reasonable solution. > > Current situation is: > > We have two sorts of numbers for RAM size: > > a) some kind of rough values, identical for all archs. These are just > subjective values, rounded up to the next bigger RAM modules you can buy > (current values can be found in > "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements" at > https://d-i.debian.org/manual/en.amd64/ch03s04.html ) > These are only rough recommendations, as in "we **recommend** X MB". > And this chapter 3.4 also mentions, that these recommendations can well be > underrun by the second sort of values: > b) these are values based on meassurements during lowmem testing. They are > different over the archs, and in the current text they are considered as > some kind of strict requirement, as in "you **need** at least X MB" values. > --> Compare this to the "we **recommend** X MB" values from a) ! > > > > > Taking all this as a basis, I would like to propose the following: > > > 1. in chapter 2 > (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch02s05.html) > which is about hardware requirements, just mention the minimal rough > recommended values from a) which says something like "512MB" or "1GB", > corresponding to RAM modules available from your favorite hardware store. > > 2. People who want to try to go with lower values, are guided to > chapter 3 > (https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/amd64/ch03s04.html), > where they find the values from b) based on lowmem tests, which contain > the "absolute minimum values", drawing the baseline that cannot be > underrun. > Note, that this page is different, depending on arch! > > 3. Move all the constraints / advanced infos like > - installer should automatically do memory-saving tricks on low-memory > systems" > - warning, when lowmem levels are untested for some archs > - note, that graphical installer images need more RAM > from chapter 2 to 3, where they fit better: That's not hardware (which would > be chapter 2), but how the software deals with the available hardware (so > that's chapter 3). > > 4. I moved the values for "Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements" > from hardcoded values to entities, to ease changings on this in the future > (especially when looking at translations). > > 5. I bumped the recommended RAM size values from a) > from > 256MB (minimum) + 512MB (recommended) > to > 512MB (minimum) + 1G (recommended) > > > > All the resulting html files, separated for all archs can be found on > https://people.debian.org/~holgerw/installation-guide___improve-ram-size-values/ > > The interesting chapters are "Memory and Disk Space Requirements" in chapter 2 > and "Meeting Minimum Hardware Requirements" in chapter 3. > > > Sorry, if this is kind of a chaotic thread; the issue grew bigger than I > had expected. > > > > Holger > > > -- > Holger Wansing <hwans...@mailbox.org> > PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076 > diff --git a/build/arch-options/armel b/build/arch-options/armel > index d17df5114..1598edb87 100644 > --- a/build/arch-options/armel > +++ b/build/arch-options/armel > @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@ > > # Note that we keep "arm" as archspec (and thus also for conditions) > # and also continue to use "arm" for arch-specific XML-files in order > # to minimize impact on translations. > > archspec="arm;armel;not-x86;not-s390;not-powerpc" > arch_listname="arm" > arch_porturl="arm" > # TODO: update > # This is coming from the lowmem package > -minimum_memory_strict=32 > +minimum_memory_strict=140 > # This is coming from the lowmem package > -minimum_memory=80 > +minimum_memory=190 > # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below > smp_config_section="N/A" > smp_config_option="N/A" > > # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition' > # in the build scripts > fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt" > network="supports-tftp;supports-rarp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot" > boot="" > frontend="newt;not-gtk" > diff --git a/build/arch-options/ppc64el b/build/arch-options/ppc64el > index 2162cac4f..f07eb97de 100644 > --- a/build/arch-options/ppc64el > +++ b/build/arch-options/ppc64el > @@ -1,22 +1,22 @@ > # This file contains architecture specific variables for > # the 'ppc64el' architecture > # It is sourced by the build scripts > > archspec="ppc64el;not-s390;not-x86" > arch_listname="powerpc" > arch_porturl="powerpc" > # TODO: update > # This is coming from the lowmem package > -minimum_memory_strict=32 > +minimum_memory_strict=256 > # This is coming from the lowmem package > -minimum_memory=64 > +minimum_memory=500 > # This is coming from the rootskel package, S60frontend > minimum_memory_gtk=800 > # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below > smp_config_section="Processor support" > smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support" > > # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition' > # in the build scripts > fdisk="fdisk.txt;cfdisk.txt" > network="supports-tftp;supports-bootp;supports-nfsroot" > diff --git a/build/arch-options/s390x b/build/arch-options/s390x > index 7dcac7a73..8647fcc71 100644 > --- a/build/arch-options/s390x > +++ b/build/arch-options/s390x > @@ -4,23 +4,23 @@ > > # Note that we keep "s390" as archspec (and thus also for conditions) > # and also continue to use "s390" for arch-specific XML-files in order > # to minimize impact on translations. > > archspec="s390;not-powerpc;not-x86" > arch_listname="s390" > arch_porturl="s390" > # TODO: update > # This is coming from the lowmem package > -minimum_memory_strict=32 > +minimum_memory_strict=120 > # This is coming from the lowmem package > -minimum_memory=44 > +minimum_memory=155 > # These two options should be set if condition 'smp' is set below > smp_config_section="Processor type and features" > smp_config_option="Symmetric multi-processing support" > > # Options below are assembled into one variable 'condition' > # in the build scripts > fdisk="fdasd.txt;dasdfmt.txt" > network="" > boot="" > frontend="not-newt;not-gtk" > diff --git a/build/entities/common.ent b/build/entities/common.ent > index 1e58745e1..f7b7f774c 100644 > --- a/build/entities/common.ent > +++ b/build/entities/common.ent > @@ -59,30 +59,39 @@ > <!ENTITY escapekey "<keycap>Esc</keycap>"> > <!ENTITY tabkey "<keycap>Tab</keycap>"> > <!ENTITY spacekey "<keycap>Space</keycap>"> > <!ENTITY shiftkey "<keycap>Shift</keycap>"> > <!ENTITY MSG-YES "<userinput>Yes</userinput>"> > <!ENTITY MSG-NO "<userinput>No</userinput>"> > <!ENTITY BTN-CONT "<guibutton>Continue</guibutton>"> > <!ENTITY BTN-CANCEL "<guibutton>Cancel</guibutton>"> > <!ENTITY BTN-GOBACK "<guibutton>Go Back</guibutton>"> > > -<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' --> > +<!-- notation used for 'megabytes' and 'gigabytes' --> > <!ENTITY notation-megabytes "MB"> > +<!ENTITY notation-gigabytes "GB"> > + > +<!-- generic RAM / harddisk size recommendations for all archs --> > +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum "512¬ation-megabytes;"> > +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend "1¬ation-gigabytes;"> > +<!ENTITY ref-no-desktop-hd "4¬ation-gigabytes;"> > +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum "1¬ation-gigabytes;"> > +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend "2¬ation-gigabytes;"> > +<!ENTITY ref-with-desktop-hd "10¬ation-gigabytes;"> > > <!-- minimum hard disk size for base system --> > <!-- As measured just before reboot (i.e. before the cleanup script drops > .debs), plus some margin. This is also approximately the used size after > cleanup, plus minimal ~150MB work space included. > Also update the value in debian-installer/build/boot/x86/f2.txt > --> > -<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "1160¬ation-megabytes;"> > +<!ENTITY minimum-fs-size "&ref-no-desktop-hd;"> > > <!-- > Size of install as used in appendix/files.xml; all values based on amd64. > > To determine the size of the base system and tasks, start with a default > installation: > - having removed /usr/lib/finish-install.d/08hw-detect to avoid installing > qemu-guest-agent which pulls glib+perl+icu > - in English > - with use of network mirror > diff --git a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > index 10f074738..eae24c6ff 100644 > --- a/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > +++ b/en/hardware/memory-disk-requirements.xml > @@ -1,48 +1,15 @@ > <!-- retain these comments for translator revision tracking --> > <!-- $Id$ --> > > <sect1 id="memory-disk-requirements"> > <title>Memory and Disk Space Requirements</title> > > <para> > > -You must have at least &minimum-memory; of memory and &minimum-fs-size; > -of hard disk space to perform a normal installation. Note that these are > -fairly minimal numbers. For more realistic figures, see > +We recommend at least &ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum; of memory and > &minimum-fs-size; > +of hard disk space to perform an installation. For more detailed values, see > <xref linkend="minimum-hardware-reqts"/>. > > -</para><para> > - > -The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be able > to > -run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested > -it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the > -<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> boot > -parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and > -<xref linkend="installer-args"/>). > - > -</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para> > - > -On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic > detection > -is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to pass > the > -boot parameter if your system has little memory. > - > -</para></warning><para> > - > -Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk"> > - > -<para> > - > -Installation images that support the graphical installer require more > -memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should > -not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If > -there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical installer, > -the former should be selected on such systems. > - > -</para> > - > -</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for > -experienced users. > - > </para> > > </sect1> > diff --git a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > index eb36bb9ce..076c65791 100644 > --- a/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > +++ b/en/preparing/minimum-hardware-reqts.xml > @@ -38,48 +38,80 @@ Any OldWorld or NewWorld PowerPC can serve well as a > desktop system. > <entry>Install Type</entry> > <entry>RAM (minimum)</entry> > <entry>RAM (recommended)</entry> > <entry>Hard Drive</entry> > </row> > </thead> > > <tbody> > <row> > <entry>No desktop</entry> > - <entry>256 megabytes</entry> > - <entry>512 megabytes</entry> > - <entry>4 gigabytes</entry> > + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry> > + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry> > + <entry>&ref-no-desktop-hd;</entry> > </row><row arch="not-s390"> > <entry>With Desktop</entry> > - <entry>1 gigabytes</entry> > - <entry>2 gigabytes</entry> > - <entry>10 gigabytes</entry> > + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-minimum;</entry> > + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-ram-recommend;</entry> > + <entry>&ref-with-desktop-hd;</entry> > </row> > > </tbody></tgroup></table> > > <para> > > The minimum values assumes that swap will be enabled and a non-liveCD image > is used. > -The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the non-graphical > (text-based) > -installer is used. > +The <quote>No desktop</quote> value assumes that the text-based installer > +(not the graphical one) is used. > > </para><para> > > The actual minimum memory requirements are a lot less than the numbers > listed in this table. With swap enabled, it is possible to > install &debian; with as little as &minimum-memory-strict;. > The same goes for the disk space requirements, especially if you > pick and choose which applications to install; see > <xref linkend="tasksel-size-list"/> for additional information on disk > space requirements. > > +</para><para> > + > +The installer normally automatically enables memory-saving tricks to be able > to > +run on such low-memory system, but on architectures that are less tested > +it may miss doing so. It can however be enabled manually by appending the > +<userinput>lowmem=1</userinput> or even <userinput>lowmem=2</userinput> boot > +parameter (see also <xref linkend="lowmem"/> and > +<xref linkend="installer-args"/>). > + > +</para><warning condition="lowmem-unchecked"><para> > + > +On &architecture; the lowmem levels have not been tested, so automatic > detection > +is probably outdated and you thus probably <emphasis>need</emphasis> to pass > the > +boot parameter if your system has little memory. > + > +</para></warning><para> > + > +Installation on systems with less memory<footnote condition="gtk"> > + > +<para> > + > +Installation images that support the graphical installer require more > +memory than images that support only the text-based installer and should > +not be used on systems with less than &minimum-memory; of memory. If > +there is a choice between booting the text-based and the graphical installer, > +the former should be selected on such systems. > + > +</para> > + > +</footnote> or disk space available may be possible but is only advised for > +experienced users. > + > </para><para arch="not-s390"> > > It is possible to run a graphical desktop environment on older or > low-end systems, but in that case it is recommended to install > a window manager that is less resource-hungry than those of the > GNOME or KDE Plasma desktop environments; alternatives include > <classname>xfce4</classname>, <classname>icewm</classname> and > <classname>wmaker</classname>, but there are others to choose from. > > </para><para> -- Samuel --- Pour une évaluation indépendante, transparente et rigoureuse ! Je soutiens la Commission d'Évaluation de l'Inria.
