All of theses historical readings are so interesting and informative. Thank you so much.
Sent from my iPad > On Jun 21, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Dorothy Gaunt via CoTyroneList > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thank you Elwyn. Absolutely fascinating. > Dorothy > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 22/06/2020, at 5:56 AM, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Marion, >> >> >> >> I suspect that a full answer to your interesting question could fill a >> hundred pages. >> >> >> >> One source you might want to investigate is: “The Population of Ireland >> 1750 – 1845” by KH Connell, published in Oxford 1950. One of the many >> causes of the problems that plagued Ireland in the 1800s was the fact that >> there had been a massive population explosion. It went up from 3 million in >> 1741 to 8 million in 1841. (It’s only 6 million today). No-one is entirely >> certain why. A reduction in neo-natal death rates was a factor. Connell >> also speculates that they started to marry younger and that consequently >> the reproductive rate ( R ) increased significantly. And as we all know >> these days, if the R number rises significantly you can see an exponential >> increase in whatever you are studying. In this case, children. >> >> >> >> The book therefore spends quite a bit of time discussing the customs >> surrounding marriage, and also different customs between Catholics and >> Protestants. There’s some interesting but grim stuff about arranged >> marriages in the West of Ireland, with girls being dragged to the altar by >> their fathers, bathed in tears, to marry men they hadn’t a notion for. “The >> Chief time for marriages is from Christmas until Lent, being the season of >> the year when people have the most leisure for settling such business.” >> (page 55). >> >> >> >> But not all marriages were arranged. Couples mostly seemed to select each >> other in the ways we would recognise today. Another factor was that >> marriage was the only thing they could look to, to break the miserableness >> of their existence. “Perhaps the strongest motives urging young people >> towards early marriages were the wretchedness of their living conditions >> and their realization that no ordinary amount of self-denial or industry >> gave promise of better times. Contemporaries frequently regarded early >> marriage as one of the evils of poor living conditions.” (p57). >> >> >> >> Anyway, as I say, that study contains quite a bit on marriage customs. >> >> >> >> Some couples eloped (if they had the means). For years the main ferry >> between Scotland and the Belfast area was between Portpatrick in >> Wigtownshire and Donaghadee in Co. Down. So couples eloped to Portpatrick >> to get married. Scottish law then (and now) allows a couple to marry at 16, >> and without parental consent. (In England and Ireland parental consent was >> required till you were 21). Some folk may have heard of people running off >> to Gretna Green to get married. Gretna Green is on the border between >> England & Scotland and so was handy if you were English and in a hurry to >> get married, but Portpatrick was the equivalent if coming from Ireland. >> Here’s a link to marriages in Portpatrick involving couples from Ireland, >> going back to 1721. Most of these are presumably elopements. I can’t think >> of any other reason for marrying there: >> >> >> >> http://www.ulsterancestry.com/free/ShowFreePage-39.html#gsc.tab=0 >> >> >> >> >> >> The Ulster-Scots are an interesting group. I did a course at Queens >> University, Belfast a year or two back on migration into Ireland. The >> lecturer drew a contrast between various invaders such as the Vikings and >> the Ulster – Scots. In spite of being present for 300 years or so, the >> Vikings left very little impact on Ireland. There’s a few place names such >> as Strangford (strong fjord) and the odd surname which may point to Norse >> origins, but by and large there’s not much sign of them. Part of the reason >> was that they only settled around the coast, and not in sufficient numbers >> to dominate the population. But another factor was that they didn’t bring >> any women with them. If they needed women then the answer was usually a >> bit of rape and pillage amongst the locals. However the significance of >> this was that if they settled and remained in Ireland, as some undoubtedly >> did, then they quickly integrated into the local community and their Norse >> identity was soon lost. In contrast, the Scots came with equal numbers of >> men and women. They tended to marry each other and kept their separate >> identity. They often looked down on the native Irish and on Catholicism >> which was the denomination that most had fought to get rid of in Scotland >> in the 1500s, so that limited the tendency for inter-marriage, though for >> all that there were plenty of mixed marriages. But overall the Ulster – >> Scots, a high percentage of whom were Presbyterian tended to marry each >> other. (There were Scots Catholics and Episcopalians who settled in >> Ireland too, but the majority were Presbyterian). This tendency can be >> found in Ireland even today and in part accounts for the separate identity >> that many in Ulster still feel, which is why they often identify as Ulster- >> Scots, rather than Irish. >> >> >> >> You ask about illegitimacy and the churches attitude. There was plenty of >> illegitimacy around. One study I read suggested that about 1% of births >> were illegitimate in the mid 1800s. There were local exceptions especially >> if there was a workhouse in the area, and workhouse births distorted the >> figures: >> >> >> >> http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/a-sexual-revolution-in-the-west-of-ireland/ >> >> >> >> Before the Poor Law was introduced c 1840, the churches were responsible >> for supporting the poor in their congregations. Consequently they took a >> great interest in illegitimate children because they might have to support >> them financially. Presbyterians usually called a woman with an illegitimate >> child up before the Kirk Session and asked her who the father was. If she >> revealed that, he too was summoned and interviewed. He was put under >> pressure to support the child, and to marry the woman if she was willing. >> They >> had to admit their sins in front of the congregation (ante-nuptial >> fornication), and were denied Communion for a while. Sometimes they had to >> sit separately from the rest of the congregation. Records of these >> examinations can be found in the Kirk Session minutes where they survive. >> (Usually in PRONI). Other denominations also pursued errant fathers though >> – in my opinion - not always with the same determination as Presbyterians. >> >> >> >> You can spot some illegitimate children in the 1901 & 1911 censuses where >> they have been “adopted” by the grandparents. They appear as the apparent >> extra son or daughter of a woman in her 60s, so the family were evidently >> often doing their best to reduce the stigma. >> >> >> >> In my own family I have an ancestor who had 2 illegitimate children over a >> 3 year period around 1825. The Kirk Session minutes show that the alleged >> father readily agreed he was the father of the first and paid up, but he >> said he was not the father of the second and refused to pay, so the church >> paid for that child for a while. Eventually 1 child died. Then the mother >> was arrested for burglary and theft. (She stole a bundle of clothes because >> she was living rough and destitute). She was taken into custody and >> eventually transported. Her remaining son was looked after by her married >> sister. So the family sort of rallied round in some cases, I would say. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Elwyn >> >>> On Sun, 21 Jun 2020 at 13:11, Marion via CoTyroneList < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> I wonder if anyone can tell me or suggest where I might find out about >>> marriage customs in nineteenth century Ireland, particularly amongst Ulster >>> Scots. Were they based on social, cultural or religious factors ? Did the >>> bride and groom have much input ? Were protestant and Roman Catholic >>> approaches very different? >>> Also what were the attitudes to illegitimacy by family members and society >>> at large? How were the mothers and children treated ? >>> Thank you in advance for your help ! >>> Regards Marion Shephard >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CoTyroneList Mailing List >>> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >>> Change Your Preferences: >>> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >>> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> CoTyroneList Mailing List >> Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] >> Change Your Preferences: >> http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com >> Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY > > _______________________________________________ > CoTyroneList Mailing List > Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] > Change Your Preferences: > http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com > Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY _______________________________________________ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: [email protected] Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
