@Gian-Carlo Pascutto, thanks! but identifying the shapes is not the
problem=)
@Brain Sheppard, Sorry it was not my goal to make you start guessing any
implementation details, somehow from your first explanation i got the
impression that you where familiar with it and i was wondering whether
anybody wrote something about it.
right now i am sticking to the paper as much as possible and reading,
trying to understand how others improve their rollouts. I hope that i will
be able to improve the rollouts at some point.
Roel
On 31 January 2017 at 17:21, Brian Sheppard via Computer-go <
computer-go@computer-go.org> wrote:
> If a "diamond" pattern is centered on a 5x5 square, then you have 13
> points. The diagram below will give the idea.
>
> __+__
> _+++_
> +++++
> _+++_
> __+__
>
>
> At one bit per cell, this would be 8192 patterns, so this is why I am
> guessing that this is the pattern set. (You would set one bit for each
> captured stone, then look up in a table.)
>
> I feel like I am engaging in a lot of guesswork regarding implementation
> details. I want to emphasize that the implementation details are not
> particularly important. The important point is that you can add this
> capability ("reply on the vital point after the capture of a nakade group,
> provided that the opponent's surrounding stones have no additional eyes")
> to your rollout, and the implementation should take less than 1% of total
> time. Any implementation that achieves that goal will make a noticeable
> difference to strength.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roel van Engelen <ich.bun...@gmail.com>
> To: computer-go <computer-go@computer-go.org>
> Sent: Tue, Jan 31, 2017 10:42 am
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo rollout nakade patterns?
>
> @Brain Sheppard
> Thanks that is a really useful explanation!
> the way you state: "and therefore a 8192-sized pattern set will identify
> all potential nakade." seems to indicate this is a known pattern set?
> could i find some more information on it somewhere? also i was unable to
> find Pebbles, is it open source?
>
> @Robert Jasiek
> what definitions/papers/publications are you referring to?
>
> m.v.g. Roel
>
> On 24 January 2017 at 12:57, Brian Sheppard via Computer-go <
> computer-go@computer-go.org> wrote:
>
>> There are two issues: one is the shape and the other is the policy that
>> the search should follow.
>>
>> Of course the vital point is a killing move whether or not a group was
>> just captured. So it is possible to detect such shapes on the board and
>> then play the vital point.
>>
>> It is an entirely different thing to say when a rollout should look for
>> such features. Rollouts are complicated; playing the "best" play does not
>> always make your search engine stronger. Of course, there is a question of
>> the time required for analysis. And then there is the question of "balance".
>>
>> "Balance" means that the rollout should play "equally well" for both
>> sides, with the goal that the terminal nodes of the rollout are accurate
>> evaluations of the leafs of the tree. If you incorporate all moves that
>> punish tactical errors then sometimes you can get unbalanced results
>> because you do not have rules that prevent tactical errors from happening.
>>
>> A common rule for nakade is to only check after a group is captured. The
>> point is that the vital point is otherwise not motivated by any heuristics,
>> whereas most other moves in capturing races are suggested by local
>> patterns. My understanding of Alpha Go's policy is that they were only
>> checking for nakade after captures.
>>
>> The "center of a group of three" rule is a separate issue. My
>> recollection is that this pattern should be checked after every move, and
>> that was a discovery by the Mogo team.
>>
>> Note that there are often subtle differences for your program compared to
>> the published papers.
>>
>> Best,
>> Brian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf
>> Of Gian-Carlo Pascutto
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 3:05 AM
>> To: computer-go@computer-go.org
>> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo rollout nakade patterns?
>>
>> On 23-01-17 20:10, Brian Sheppard via Computer-go wrote:
>> > only captures of up to 9 stones can be nakade.
>>
>> I don't really understand this.
>>
>> http://senseis.xmp.net/?StraightThree
>>
>> Both constructing this shape and playing the vital point are not
>> captures. How can you detect the nakade (and play at a in time) if you only
>> check captures?
>>
>> --
>> GCP
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