There is no question that there are positions where suicide or eye filling are correct.
- Don steve uurtamo wrote: > maybe this doesn't sound right to everyone, > but i thought that suicide and filling one-point > eyes were both things that could be highly > useful in many corner positions where you either > want to create a nakade (fill the eye), or threaten > one (with suicide). > > s. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: computer-go <computer-go@computer-go.org> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:54:30 PM > Subject: Re: [computer-go] Suicide question > > > > > David Doshay wrote: > >> There are two reasons to consider suicide and its detection.. >> >> 1) Some rule sets allow suicide. In such a rule set a suicide can >> be the best move because it can be a huge ko threat. >> >> 2) As David Fotland has pointed out many times, when competing >> under rules that allow suicide, some programs will do one just to >> see if your program refuses to play when you detect its suicide. >> > But there are very few arguments for putting suicide in the play-outs. > You can still design your program to accept and even play suicide > without putting these moves in the play-outs. > > The play-outs are imperfect by nature - they try to take a statistical > sample of many possible ways the game might proceed. The path to > improve the quality of this statistical sample is to not play moves > that > represent very UNLIKELY continuations. Adding these moves randomly > to > the play-outs doesn't improve it's ability to statically measure the > likely outcome. > > For instance since is "legal" to resign, we could randomly include > this > possibility in the play-outs, but it would not increase the resolving > power of the play-outs. > > Moving into 1 point eyes is also legal, but virtually all Monte Carlo > programs forbid this as it's well known to be incredibly stupid in the > vast majority of cases. But in some rare cases it is actually good - > but we still would not want to add it to our play-outs. > > Because of the 1 point eye rule, suicide in the play-outs probably > isn't > THAT bad. You are probably only suiciding a group that is already > dead - but you are weakening the play-outs. It may be worth it if > you > get enough speed in return. > > In my program I am always looking for an excuse to veto moves that are > obviously bad. If I had such an obvious class of position like > suicide, I would jump on the opportunity to remove them from the > play-outs! > > - Don > > > >> Cheers, >> David >> >> >> >> On 16, Jan 2008, at 5:52 AM, Don Dailey wrote: >> >> >>> I think suicide is insane myself. But I think the reason programs >>> might use it is only for a speedup - it's faster with some >>> implementations to allow suicide even though it makes the games >>> > longer. > >>> Of course you are right about point B. If suicide is illegal in >>> > the > >>> actual game, there can be no point in allowing it in the play-outs. >>> It's almost certainly wrong to allow it in the play-outs even if you >>> > are > >>> playing by suicide rules - a lot of work has gone into finding good >>> moves in the play-outs and this would be one of the prime candidates >>> > for > >>> removal! >>> >>> - Don >>> >>> >>> Jacques Basaldúa wrote: >>> >>>> Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Multi-stone suicide is allowed, single stone not. >>>>> >>>> I hadn't even considered suicide.(It would be a major change for >>>> > me, > >>>> as neither my Gui nor my board system allow such moves.) >>>> >>>> The question is Why do you do it? >>>> >>>> a. Just in case you wanted the entire program to support suicide go >>>> >>>> or >>>> >>>> b. Because that has some advantage as a random playout. >>>> >>>> If it was b, can anyone explain why suicide is a better evaluation >>>> > for > >>>> a normal (non suicide) game. >>>> >>>> Jacques. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> computer-go mailing list >>>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> computer-go mailing list >>> computer-go@computer-go.org >>> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> computer-go mailing list >> computer-go@computer-go.org >> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
