Mathew and Stephen, >>>On my 42, the leading edge of the keel where it meets the hull shows signs >>>of cracking. I promptly had a nautical engineer look at. He was an intern >>>or apprentice at C&C in the ‘70s, and based on his knowledge he concluded >>>that the location of the cracks is not a critical stress point. The weight >>>of the keel is supported further aft, and the leading edge likely has fill >>>inside and may be flexing enough to develop the cracks. He concluded it is >>>non-structural with no chance of catastrophic failure. That’s the kind of >>>problem I’m willing to keep an eye on.
Long story short: it can likely be repaired, but you need expert help. This is not something to mess around with. Good luck! Matt C&C 42 Custom <<<<<<<<<<< When we first bought Calypso (1998) we also discovered micro fractures just forward of the keel/mast step area. The micro fractures were allowing some sea water seepage which is what caught our attention. As the boat was already in the yard with the mast out being painted it was relatively easy to fire up the grinders and explore the laminate in that area, both inside and outside the hull. What we discovered was the original (1970) polyester “orange bog” that Bruckmann’s used to fill the hull to keel fairing feature had failed turning into a crumbly mass of bog bits and offering no reinforcement in that area. Also, there was a lack of additional support from bulkheads etc creating a “bend here” point just forward of the keel/mast step. With an aggressively raced boat that likely had max backstay tension applied every race since 1971 the micro fractures allowed water in that then went through freeze/thaw cycles when the 43 was in the east coast and great lakes regions. We repaired the micro fractures with extra layers of epoxy and glass cloth inside and out but especially inside, then used a much stronger epoxy filler in the remaining void forward of the keel, then glassed over that with lots of epoxy/cloth. We also performed some failed bulkhead repairs where the water seeping had wicked up the plywood (in 1998/1999). Fast forward to 2014 and we are beginning the now 8 year long Calypso restoration project. We had also purchased all the C&C build drawings the Maritime Museum could identify as related to the 70’s era 43s. Fortunately this included several C&C 61 drawings. Reading through the many pages I noticed the C&C 61 “Sorcery” had also experienced a certain amount of unexpected flexibility just forward of the keel/mast step. The C&C Design Group determined extra reinforcement was needed and specified a SS “I” beam be fabricated and installed in “Sorcery”. Further notes lead me to believe later 61 and 43 hulls had this reinforcement included in the original builds. As part of our 43 restoration project we fabricated 2 “I” beams from G10 that are aprox. 4” tall x 3” wide x 4’ long glassed in from next to the mast step forward to near where the babystay attaches to the hull. We also rebuilt all the bulkheads in the area as they provide significant fore/aft stiffness. This is the area where rig forces are doing their best to bend the hull into a banana shape every time the boat is sailed hard. Stephen, if you pursue DIY repairs consider using epoxy vs polyester resins. My experience indicates epoxy has a superior secondary bond strength. If you decide to fabricate extra support members to spread the keel loads out over more structure, G10, while hard on cutting tools makes a structure that is impervious to rot and likely stronger than most materials available to DIY boat repair enthusiasts. Martin DeYoung Calypso 1971 C&C 43 Seattle/Port Ludlow Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows ________________________________ From: Matthew via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2022 8:29:54 AM To: 'Stus-List' <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: Matthew <wolf...@erie.net> Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling? Stephen: My first boat was a Ranger 26 that had been modified (the cast iron keel was replaced with an IOR-style lead keel). I discovered this after I bought the boat -- for a song, mind you, as it had been abandoned. We tackled a variety of projects, including rebedding the keel bolts. The bolt holes were visibly cracked and leaking a bit. I can say with 100% certainty that the keel is now adequately supported, and the bolt holes will never leak again. Based on my experience with the Ranger, my view is that nearly anything can be repaired on a fiberglass boat. Given what you described, you can probably glass some stiffeners in place. My concerns would be: 1) what caused the problem; and 2) fixing it correctly. If you race the boat, you may also need to deal with weight/modification issues. As to my first concern, a solid glass hull flexing enough to discern keel movement is obviously not normal. Perhaps the boat ran hard aground? As to my second concern, I suggest having a nautical engineer inspect the problem and recommend the repair. I would not just go sailing and keep an eye on it. The keel on the Cal 33 I grew up on developed a problem we were “keeping an eye on,” and the boat nearly sunk in the middle of Lake Erie (50 degree water) with me and a few law school buddies on board. Had she gone down, we would have perished – no life raft on board, and not enough time for a rescue in water that cold. The repair was relatively straightforward, and the boat is still sailing today. Remarkably, although Cal 33 owners were not warned, Lapworth had already designed the fix. It was an easy repair that has lasted for nearly 40 years, but the potential consequences of a pre-repair failure were disastrous. On my 42, the leading edge of the keel where it meets the hull shows signs of cracking. I promptly had a nautical engineer look at. He was an intern or apprentice at C&C in the ‘70s, and based on his knowledge he concluded that the location of the cracks is not a critical stress point. The weight of the keel is supported further aft, and the leading edge likely has fill inside and may be flexing enough to develop the cracks. He concluded it is non-structural with no chance of catastrophic failure. That’s the kind of problem I’m willing to keep an eye on. Long story short: it can likely be repaired, but you need expert help. This is not something to mess around with. Good luck! Matt C&C 42 Custom From: Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 7:31 PM To: Stus-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> Cc: Stephen Kidd <stephenk...@gmail.com> Subject: Stus-List Re: 25 MKII - Smiling? Greetings, I wanted to give an update on the keel wobble on our 25 MKII. It took a while for us to get our ducks and the weather in a row, but it gave us time to do a lot of reading and research following the leads provided through the list. As our next step in investigating the keel wobble, we tightened the bolts and checked the keel with the boat in slings. Torquing the bolts went smoothly using a torque wrench, torque multiplier and an extra deep socket. Before tightening, we backed them up a little, and they all budged with between 100 - 150 ft/lbs of torque on the wrench. We were able to torque the keel bolts to 350 ft/lbs, and there was no indication of the bolt spinning or washers digging into the glass. We then had the boat lifted in slings, and the keel continued to flex with a moderate push with a foot. At this point, I noticed that the flex wasn't between the keel and the hull (that was encouraging!), but it was the entire hull flexing. I then climbed aboard and asked the very accommodating marina manager to wiggle the keel, which he did with vigor. The entire bottom of the bilge visibly flexed. Interestingly to me, the keel bolts didn't appear to move relative to the rest of the hull, everything was in it together. The hull/keel joint actually seems pretty solid, so I am glad that we took this step before dropping the keel. The hull flexing is something we should have caught right away, but we looked right past it because we assumed it was the hull/keel joint. Even if the hull/keel joint is off the hook for the wobble, from past discussions on this list and elsewhere, I suspect this is not a good finding. We have seen cases where people have made significant and impressive structural repairs, many of which have been referenced here on the list, to increase rigidity. The both of us carefully inspected the bilge area for signs of cracking or separation, and we have not identified anything obvious (untrained eyes). Thus, we would not know what to fix were we to go that route. The marina manager is similarly at a loss. I'm also not comfortable not knowing why the hull is visibly flexing. At the same time, several sailors at the marina suggested that she's probably fine and we should just go sailing and keep an eye on it. As tempting as that is, that's beyond our comfort zone. So, that's the general outcome of the wobbly keel investigation. I do have a question: Is this a repair that a reasonable person would be able to take on? I'm not sure that person would be me, but I do not want to scrap a boat that someone could make good use of. Afterall, she has been an incredible boat for us and is undeniably an adorable 25' C&C. Many thanks, Stephen On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 3:32 PM Stephen Kidd via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote: Happy New Year! We're hoping to get some insights on an issue we are having with our keel. We recently had our 25 MKII hauled for some winter projects and were surprised to see that the keel "wiggled" when the boat was on the travel lift, a little bit laterally. I've uploaded some photos of the keel and the keel bolts<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphotos.app.goo.gl%2FTVsmhMAwwJUQEEee8&data=04%7C01%7C%7C7adb8e3096d9448938b108da09bd576e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637833006086461613%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=84%2BEXy4W86SPVvvPZFd%2BiLsLhtgodCA3TpjLJD3fqvs%3D&reserved=0>. Here are some observations: 1) No signs of weeping from the keel joint and no visible separation when lifted from the stands. 2) None of the keel bolts (3 in total) leak. 3) Crack at the aft end doesn't look typical of the C&C smile based on internet searches. Should we torque the keel bolts, grind out the crack, fill (G-flex?), fair, and paint, or is this beyond a "smile" fix? Thanks! Stephen
