Your boat is very similar to a Mirage 24. Anything on their website of use?
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 20, 2020, at 12:16 PM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: Hi Chris While I believe Surveyors know an awful lot about boats and their construction they can sometimes make an error. We had a Hinterhoeller Niagara 26 (which is basically a C&C based on who built those boats). Early on we noted water seeping into the boat around the keel bolts. Tightening the keel bolts while in the water eliminated the leaks. When we hauled at the end of the season and boat was in the slings we noted movement from side to side similar to what you described. Rebedding the keel and retorquing the keel bolts resolved the issue completely. It is possible that perhaps surveyor may have been incorrect about the cause of the keel movement. I would suggest that in the slings you check this out yourself and get a second opinion from a qualified expert at the same time. It may well be that the surveyor is correct and the movement is caused by hull flexing but it also may simply be loose keel bolts. The 24 is a fairly small boat. The construction is very similar to the Niagara given that George Hinterhoeller ran both construction facilities. In our case there was sufficient length on the bolts for us to back off the nuts approx. 2 inches on each and then jack up the boat those same two inches. This left a gap between hull and keel sufficient to clean out the joint. We then used a generous amount of 3M 5200 and lowered the boat back down on the keel and torqued the bolts. Never leaked again and the movement was entirely gone. Your situation may very well be different but the entire cost since the boat was hauled anyway was that of a tube of 5200. Mike Hoyt Persistence 1987 Frers 33 #16 Halifax, NS www.hoytsailing.com<http://www.hoytsailing.com> From: CnC-List <cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> On Behalf Of Robert Abbott via CnC-List Sent: April 20, 2020 12:42 PM To: Chris Bennett <crben...@gmail.com> Cc: Robert Abbott <robertabb...@eastlink.ca>; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel movement in C&C 24 Chris: Inside, check grid structures and interior pans for cracks, from the pics I think I can see some cracks. Probe all grid, pan, floor, step, and bulkhead bonds with your flexible blade. Should your inspection reveal hull damage or weakness, you’ll need to deal with this first. Corrective measures depend entirely on the problem, but if the damage is serious, you will probably have to remove the keel. In addition to grinding away and replacing any fractured or delaminated glass, a full repair will also necessitate additional reinforcing members and/or additional layers of fiberglass to strengthen the damaged areas. The mast compression is not as serious but nevertheless needs to be addressed as well.....removal of the old and a complete rebuild is necessary. Given what you have described and the pics, I agree with Joe, not a good idea to go sailing and possibly have the keel fall off. The cost of a professional repair would probably be as much as the boat is worth....how much personal time and effort you are prepared to put into it, only you can determine. Keep us informed. Rob Abbott On 4/19/2020 10:43 PM, Chris Bennett wrote: Hi Rob, I do have pictures but do not know how best to post them to this forum so I will upload them to my google drive. This is the shareable link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qEfA4WHGKMVUk6bKch9X4-hXn76AR46C The issue I believe from examining the bilge area is that my C&C 24 has stiffeners (what would be floors in a wooden boat) that help prevent the hull from flexing too much when the keel is put in stress (say when beating to windward) and that the bonding of some of these stiffeners to the hull may have failed. I see signs of this in three of the 'floors'. The surveyor said that the issue is general hull flexing, not any cracking or failure of the lead keel to fibreglass joint. I named the pictures that you should (hopefully) be able to download from the above link as descriptively as I could. I use the term floors to refer to the transverse reinforcing areas. The floors at the forward end and aft end of the bilge are solid 'boxes'that have no issues. The other 3 floors (floors 2 to 4) from forward to aft are as follows (see overview picture and detailed pics): 2) The mast step floor. The plywood appears to have sunken and partly delaminated and pulled away from the sides. There is a resin and fibreglass strap that runs over the plywood cross piece and outboard at least 8 inches. The glass does not seem very thick on this one. See the pictures that show a clear curve that has cracked the base of the compression post casting. I shimmed this up last year but did not address the real issue. 3) A U shaped center 'floor' that is basically a big strap of resin and glass that runs down into the bilge and up the sides. The keel bolt goes through this strap. The pictures show a crack on either side where the strap attaches to the bilge base. Not sure how far the strap runs outboard but at least 8 inches to where the hull liner cabin sole is bonded to the hull. I cannot see how this would do much to stop the hull from flexing 4) Another plywood crosspiece with resin and glass strap over it. This strap appears to no longer be bonded correctly to the hull in the pictures. I am thinking of reinforcing floors 2 and 4 perhaps adding a cross piece and tabbing this better underneath as well as encapsulating in epoxy. Perhaps a box made from a top crosspiece with two ends that resemble more traditional (deeper) floors would be better if you can picture what I mean? I would replace the mast step fitting with a plate and collar made of aluminum since the original fitting does not appear to be available anymore - the compression post is 2 inches in outer diameter roughly. I was also thinking about adding deeper floors fore and aft of the center U shaped strap but concerned this might introduce hard spots? To do any of this I suspect I will have to remove the teak and holly sole and cut out with a multi tool or grinder a portion of the fibreglass sole so as to gain access to the outboard ends to allow for suitably wide floors as well as making access much easier. The problem with this approach is that this liner is bonded to the hull and contributes to the overall strength so it would need to be replaced carefully so as to restore this strength. A further constraint is to leave access to the keel bolts for tightening or replacement and to the bilge for cleaning. Any suggestions and comments greatly appreciated! Regards, Chris On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 at 17:26, Robert Abbott <robertabb...@eastlink.ca<mailto:robertabb...@eastlink.ca>> wrote: Chris, Trying to understand exactly what you are describing without a picture....are you saying the keel is tight to the keel box but the keel box is cracked from the hull? If there is no 'smile' and your keel moves 4" side to side, what else could it be? If I understand correctly, that's a big problem....you could loose your keel while sailing and that's a big problem. The compression post depressed is another problem and needs to be addressed for continued sailing. Can it be fixed...many things can be fixed but how much time and money are you willing to put into the boat. I'd call the surveyor back and ask him his opinion on the cost of a repair (if he would provide one, he might not, but he just might be an honest guy and tell you what you are in for even if you decide to do the repairs yourself). Rob Abbott AZURA C&C 32 - #277 Halifax, N.S. On 4/19/2020 5:39 PM, Chris Bennett via CnC-List wrote: Hi folks, I own Drifter, a C&C 24 from 1985. A recent survey by a potential buyer found that despite the keel being well attached (no 'smile' or obvious issues with the sump to keel joint) the keel moves up to 4 inches from side to side while the boat is hanging in the slings. The surveyor attributed this to failed bonding of the hull liner to the hull. He also noted that the compression post step had subsided and the cast aluminum compression post base was cracked on both sides. I would like to repair the boat and was wondering if anyone else has experienced and addressed these issues? Thanks! Chris Bennett _______________________________________________ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray _______________________________________________ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
_______________________________________________ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
