Agreed Gustin,
I don't think there is malice or intent here, people are merely busy
struggling with their lives.
Cheers
Sam
On April 6, 2014 Sunday 11:53:27 Gustin Johnson wrote:
> I don't think anyone has the "goal" of destroying the group, in fact most
> of what you describe are merely symptoms of disorganization and perhaps a
> lack of support or interest. I see no malice here at all.
>
> As for what you consider "wasting" your time, all I will say is that that
> you either want to participate or not. You may or may not get the support
> from members that you need, however the choice to participate or lead is
> entirely yours.
>
> I am not sure about who has the registration details for clug.ca, but the
> registrar is tucows and the hosting appears to be done by
> canadianwebhosting.com. As far as I can tell, Wordpress is merely the CMS
> that is being used.
>
> I also see nothing unusual with Shawn's headers. When I look at the source
> of his message I see:
>
> From: Shawn <sgro...@open2space.com>
>
> I too am watching with interest.
>
> Best of luck,
> __
> G
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 4:21 AM, R Edwards <ronald.edwa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > Reply to Shawn, (sorry, decided to leave off diplomatic and go for blunt -
> > very long list)
> >
> > Ron, it seems you have a vision for CLUG. That's all that is needed at
> > times. A vision can sometimes be a magical thing that provides razor
> > like focus, and attract others.
> >
> > As a past Prez, I have seen this many times. The CLUG members are
> > fantastic people who really do want to help out. But it takes a clear
> > focus/direction and some good delegation skills. A number of the
> > members want to help, but don't see how (or don't want a greater
> > leadership role) until someone can ask them to do JobX, with enough
> > detail to make the job clear.
> >
> > The danger I've also seen crop up many times is members being "expected"
> > to fill certain roles or take on specific tasks. It is one thing if
> > they volunteer themselves, it is another if the expectation is one sided.
> >
> > I see in your post the potential for both points to occur. So balance
> > is the key, IMO.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > >>> Shawn, you seem to be making more out of what is there than I put
> >
> > there. I would never expect anyone to take up an idea of mine without
> > EVERYTHING being crystal clear before hand....in fact, one of the things
> > about me that seems to annoy people is my attention to details (except
> > spelling :). I was merely mentioning ideas - as stated - because I didn't
> > think it to be the time or place for writing a short book. Bit of a waste
> > of time if no one is interested in the idea enough to get details about it
> > in the first place. Appreciate your insights though. -Ron-
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Some of your ideas will require revisions of the
> >
> > bylaws, I think. But that is not really a difficult task either - just
> > an administrative thing.
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > >>> I was over the bylaws with a fine tooth comb and saw no conflicts with
> >
> > items I suggested but may have missed a small point. (Section 3 para 6 and
> > consider that you don't have most of the required info to make a
> > determination if your referring to 'contests'-gifts or donations would
> > have
> > been used as prizes and fall under the wording of the bylaw as to purpose)
> > Your right though, any minor points can be cleared up by amending the
> > bylaws in a small way...an administrative task at a meeting.
> >
> > I had in mind to have the bylaws amended (if agreed upon) at the first
> >
> > opportunity as a few members (including Mel) could attest to as I detailed
> > processes to them which included the assumption the members would be
> > allowed to vote at all meetings. My problem at this point is that there
> > seems to be six or seven places (depending on definitions) where the
> > bylaws
> > are currently being outright ignored - clearly in violation. Some of the
> > current? executive MAY have a Tier Two membership but a couple of us
> > cannot
> > seem to find ANY other Tier Two members .... so my curiosity is nagging at
> > me .... how have they been achieving a quorum at all. Apparently, fees
> > have not been collected for quite some time from anyone that I have heard
> > from yet (merely mentioning according to the available data at this time).
> >
> > (See #10 below as well) -Ron-
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Regardless - that sort of vision, and someone with the will to make it
> > happen and assume the various risks in doing so is exactly what the
> > group needs in my eyes. So far, you seem to be the best (or at least
> > most vocal) candidate in that area.
> >
> > There have been other changes in my life as well recently which prevent
> > me from taking a larger part than a list lurker. I'm not sure if my own
> > interests are aligned with the group's anymore, and meetings on weekday
> > evenings are not convenient for me. So I'm afraid I'll continue to be a
> > list lurker and offer help when/where I can. I do hope to see the group
> > continue though, and may be able to offer the next exec some contacts to
> > help out.
> >
> > Watching the conversation with great interest.
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > >>> Well, Shawn, help is exactly what I am needing and cannot seem to find
> >
> > it no matter to whom I query. Perhaps you could help me with some of
> > these
> > questions.....
> >
> > 1) Who actually owns the domain name 'clug.ca'? The club, or Wordpress,
> > the webhosting agency? If the hosting service was being provided free of
> > charge (couldn't get that answered either!), they (Wordpress)may actually
> > own the Domain Name. There has been a president established in that
> > regard. If that is the case, it represents a very serious problem when
> > looking at the prospect of 'growing' the club. Very serious!
> >
> > 2) What type of agreement does Clug have with Wordpress and (wondering if
> > this is the point you mentioned not being in agreement with bylaws or not
> > but...) does it permit the use or placement of 'outside' or
> > 'non-associated' trademarks in a visible location of the page. This would
> > actually have nothing to do with the bylaws so I am guessing you were
> > referring to something else but it is the single point I mentioned in the
> > ideas I was not really certain about as it involves a contractual
> > agreement
> > that I could have no way of determining in advance. Section 3, paragraph
> > 6
> > of the bylaws might address this but again, it depends upon exact
> > definitions.
> >
> > 3) Why could you not have made sure that your email address was part of
> > the header as it is for almost everyone else? :) I would rather ask these
> > questions in private but ...what can I say....I am only one person (but
> > not
> > the only one)...that isn't getting many answers. (besides, this way, this
> > too can be Cc'd to the CUUG executive!)
> >
> > 4) Why is the Treasurer the only person apparently able to take membership
> > fees while it clearly states in the bylaws that this is the responsibility
> > of the Secretary (unless they are not present at which point someone else
> > is appointed the task but has the Secretary not been present at most
> > meetings and if so, why were (3.5.e)-(4.1) and (9.0) not utilized to
> > address this) ?
> >
> > 5) The President is responsible for consistency of order, policies and
> > procedures as well as providing guidance. In many registered non-profits
> > the size of this one, the Secretary is actually the most important member
> > of the Executive. So, my question is, who exactly is Winson (Name on web
> > page)and why is there no way to contact him except at a meeting (if he is
> > there)? He was, apparently, at the last attempt at the AGM but, despite
> > the fact the bylaws say it is his job to take memberships, no memberships
> > could be accepted because Kin was not there. Do you think that is as
> > strange as I do?
> >
> > 6) Why are addresses not taken for Tier Two members ("....no way to
> > contact him if he doesn't answer his emails!") when it says this is a
> > requirement in the bylaws? The Executive would have had the right to
> > contact them so there would not have been a privacy issue involved.
> >
> > 7) Why was it not possible for at least two prospective new members at two
> > different times to find out how many Tier Two members there are in the
> > group?
> >
> > 8) Over the years, I have been a member of four non-profits, two of which
> > I was a member of the Executive board. Unless the government and banking
> > rules have changed since I was made a signatory, two signatories are
> > required for a bank account for a non-profit of this size. Aside from the
> > Treasurer, the second is usually the founding member or a current board
> > member. My question at this point is, does the Clug actually have a
> > second
> > signatory? (I do nothing without some sort of reason and this is no
> > different. The reason for asking this question is the next query in this
> > list.)
> >
> > 9) In more than four weeks, why have (from what I could discern) at least
> > three prospective new members not been offered the opportunity to pay
> > membership fees? I am now currently attempting to do the same along with
> > a
> > few others and to date, have remained unable to achieve this function or
> > even be placed in contact with anyone that can. Why? ("placed in
> > contact"
> > refers to two way communication)
> >
> > 10) When Tier Two members have only two opportunities to vote (at AGM and
> > SGM but usually only once a year at AGM) (1.1.b) and Tier One members have
> > only what can best be described as a passive, observational presence at
> > monthly meetings, why is the Executive distressed at not being able to
> > accomplish much and the Tier One Members seem to be controlling the
> > vocalizations involved with determining club direction in most of the list
> > postings? Have Tier One Members been voting on issues or otherwise having
> > a say at the monthly meetings?
> >
> > These, and others I have not mentioned, could be addressed and
> > corrected..... except that the only folks that seem to be interested
> > enough
> > to do so are not able to do so. A couple are getting the feeling that the
> > fate of the group has already been decided but we are not being told.
> > Some are also getting the impression that the current members don't want
> > the sort of changes this would imply. I expected to generate considerable
> > response with that posting but .... perhaps the mention of increased
> > division between Tier one and two scared them? What conclusions would you
> > arrive at coming in from the outside as a new or prospective new member?
> >
> > One other thing that I am finding very curious .... CUUG has been
> > mentioned in a few of the posts .... I too am a member of that group but I
> > find the assortment of messages that are selected and Cc'd to a specific
> > member of that executive rather curious. Given that he could be a member
> > to CLUG's mailing list the same as Joe Blo from New York, that is rather a
> > strange occurrence. Good thing I am not the naturally suspicious type,
> > especially since I sent that very person an email a few days back and have
> > never heard back from him. Why, in fact, I was on the phone with someone
> > on Friday and mentioned that I noticed someone had done that ... he never
> > mentioned the fact that he did it as well.... intentionally avoided it and
> > changed the topic .... I'm still too trusting, you know! Always seem to
> > get bitten. Same person I made a point of mentioning I had a thing about
> > honesty. Go figure .... but that's OK ... I believe in Karma
> >
> > I had it in my mind that the group had the potential to achieve
> > International recognition. I have already attempted to communicate this
> > previously undisclosed goal to your treasurer ..... I am currently having
> > doubts as to whether or not I will hear back from him at all. Out of five
> > emails I have sent him since becoming involved with your group, I have yet
> > to receive a reply on any of them. If he had been at the last AGM
> > attempt,
> > you would have had a few new Tier Two members. I wonder. I hope that he
> > isn't deathly ill or had to deal with a serious personal emergency ... but
> > I am inclined to consider that this is not the likely situation. It was
> > made known on the lists that new folks were looking to join.
> >
> > Thoughts about getting this group to Internationally recognized status is
> > now the furthest thing from my mind, Shawn. At this point it would seem
> > to
> > be a monumental task just getting through the next four weeks (presuming
> > the choice is even still available) and one I have been hearing positive
> > things from have just left everything in my hands for two of those four
> > weeks. NOT
> >
> > There may not be a treasurer (in fact) and the Vice Prez has announced he
> > is stepping down ..... not even sure about the secretary's thoughts about
> > all of this .... something I read in the deep dark past about a sinking
> > ship comes to mind..... Ten active people would be needed to merely
> > operate legally (eight for AGM quorum and two will not make it to meeting
> > at any point) ...... might be easier to start a new group with a different
> > name (not my idea originally in point of fact) ........ but ..... NOT
> >
> > A rather large number of the messages seem to contain similar themes...
> > how they all think this group is a great idea ... but they think it is a
> > waste of their time to take part personally .... two or three hours a
> > month
> > out of 720 is way to valuable to spend doing something that they think is
> > a
> > good idea.
> >
> > Tell me Shawn. Honest opinion. If you had answers to most of the above,
> > what would you do?
> >
> > I will understand if you don't reply.
> >
> > Aside from home and work needs to attend to, working out, designing and
> > building mechanical devices to attach to my telescope, teaching myself
> > acoustic and electric guitar (not just that easy strumming chords stuff),
> > I
> > have two books I am obligated to complete. Guess what I am going to do?
> >
> > Again, I will understand if you don't reply.
> >
> > Why should I waste my time on people that don't want to 'waste' theirs?
> >
> > Say goodbye to the group folks ... but somehow, I get the feeling that was
> > the intended goal for a few.
> >
> >
> > Ron
> >
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