I don't think anyone has the "goal" of destroying the group, in fact most
of what you describe are merely symptoms of disorganization and perhaps a
lack of support or interest. I see no malice here at all.
As for what you consider "wasting" your time, all I will say is that that
you either want to participate or not. You may or may not get the support
from members that you need, however the choice to participate or lead is
entirely yours.
I am not sure about who has the registration details for clug.ca, but the
registrar is tucows and the hosting appears to be done by
canadianwebhosting.com. As far as I can tell, Wordpress is merely the CMS
that is being used.
I also see nothing unusual with Shawn's headers. When I look at the source
of his message I see:
From: Shawn <sgro...@open2space.com>
I too am watching with interest.
Best of luck,
__
G
On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 4:21 AM, R Edwards <ronald.edwa...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Reply to Shawn, (sorry, decided to leave off diplomatic and go for blunt -
> very long list)
>
> Ron, it seems you have a vision for CLUG. That's all that is needed at
> times. A vision can sometimes be a magical thing that provides razor
> like focus, and attract others.
>
> As a past Prez, I have seen this many times. The CLUG members are
> fantastic people who really do want to help out. But it takes a clear
> focus/direction and some good delegation skills. A number of the
> members want to help, but don't see how (or don't want a greater
> leadership role) until someone can ask them to do JobX, with enough
> detail to make the job clear.
>
> The danger I've also seen crop up many times is members being "expected"
> to fill certain roles or take on specific tasks. It is one thing if
> they volunteer themselves, it is another if the expectation is one sided.
>
> I see in your post the potential for both points to occur. So balance
> is the key, IMO.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Shawn, you seem to be making more out of what is there than I put
> there. I would never expect anyone to take up an idea of mine without
> EVERYTHING being crystal clear before hand....in fact, one of the things
> about me that seems to annoy people is my attention to details (except
> spelling :). I was merely mentioning ideas - as stated - because I didn't
> think it to be the time or place for writing a short book. Bit of a waste
> of time if no one is interested in the idea enough to get details about it
> in the first place. Appreciate your insights though. -Ron-
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Some of your ideas will require revisions of the
> bylaws, I think. But that is not really a difficult task either - just
> an administrative thing.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> I was over the bylaws with a fine tooth comb and saw no conflicts with
> items I suggested but may have missed a small point. (Section 3 para 6 and
> consider that you don't have most of the required info to make a
> determination if your referring to 'contests'-gifts or donations would have
> been used as prizes and fall under the wording of the bylaw as to purpose)
> Your right though, any minor points can be cleared up by amending the
> bylaws in a small way...an administrative task at a meeting.
>
> I had in mind to have the bylaws amended (if agreed upon) at the first
> opportunity as a few members (including Mel) could attest to as I detailed
> processes to them which included the assumption the members would be
> allowed to vote at all meetings. My problem at this point is that there
> seems to be six or seven places (depending on definitions) where the bylaws
> are currently being outright ignored - clearly in violation. Some of the
> current? executive MAY have a Tier Two membership but a couple of us cannot
> seem to find ANY other Tier Two members .... so my curiosity is nagging at
> me .... how have they been achieving a quorum at all. Apparently, fees
> have not been collected for quite some time from anyone that I have heard
> from yet (merely mentioning according to the available data at this time).
> (See #10 below as well) -Ron-
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Regardless - that sort of vision, and someone with the will to make it
> happen and assume the various risks in doing so is exactly what the
> group needs in my eyes. So far, you seem to be the best (or at least
> most vocal) candidate in that area.
>
> There have been other changes in my life as well recently which prevent
> me from taking a larger part than a list lurker. I'm not sure if my own
> interests are aligned with the group's anymore, and meetings on weekday
> evenings are not convenient for me. So I'm afraid I'll continue to be a
> list lurker and offer help when/where I can. I do hope to see the group
> continue though, and may be able to offer the next exec some contacts to
> help out.
>
> Watching the conversation with great interest.
>
> Shawn
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Well, Shawn, help is exactly what I am needing and cannot seem to find
> it no matter to whom I query. Perhaps you could help me with some of these
> questions.....
>
> 1) Who actually owns the domain name 'clug.ca'? The club, or Wordpress,
> the webhosting agency? If the hosting service was being provided free of
> charge (couldn't get that answered either!), they (Wordpress)may actually
> own the Domain Name. There has been a president established in that
> regard. If that is the case, it represents a very serious problem when
> looking at the prospect of 'growing' the club. Very serious!
>
> 2) What type of agreement does Clug have with Wordpress and (wondering if
> this is the point you mentioned not being in agreement with bylaws or not
> but...) does it permit the use or placement of 'outside' or
> 'non-associated' trademarks in a visible location of the page. This would
> actually have nothing to do with the bylaws so I am guessing you were
> referring to something else but it is the single point I mentioned in the
> ideas I was not really certain about as it involves a contractual agreement
> that I could have no way of determining in advance. Section 3, paragraph 6
> of the bylaws might address this but again, it depends upon exact
> definitions.
>
> 3) Why could you not have made sure that your email address was part of
> the header as it is for almost everyone else? :) I would rather ask these
> questions in private but ...what can I say....I am only one person (but not
> the only one)...that isn't getting many answers. (besides, this way, this
> too can be Cc'd to the CUUG executive!)
>
> 4) Why is the Treasurer the only person apparently able to take membership
> fees while it clearly states in the bylaws that this is the responsibility
> of the Secretary (unless they are not present at which point someone else
> is appointed the task but has the Secretary not been present at most
> meetings and if so, why were (3.5.e)-(4.1) and (9.0) not utilized to
> address this) ?
>
> 5) The President is responsible for consistency of order, policies and
> procedures as well as providing guidance. In many registered non-profits
> the size of this one, the Secretary is actually the most important member
> of the Executive. So, my question is, who exactly is Winson (Name on web
> page)and why is there no way to contact him except at a meeting (if he is
> there)? He was, apparently, at the last attempt at the AGM but, despite
> the fact the bylaws say it is his job to take memberships, no memberships
> could be accepted because Kin was not there. Do you think that is as
> strange as I do?
>
> 6) Why are addresses not taken for Tier Two members ("....no way to
> contact him if he doesn't answer his emails!") when it says this is a
> requirement in the bylaws? The Executive would have had the right to
> contact them so there would not have been a privacy issue involved.
>
> 7) Why was it not possible for at least two prospective new members at two
> different times to find out how many Tier Two members there are in the
> group?
>
> 8) Over the years, I have been a member of four non-profits, two of which
> I was a member of the Executive board. Unless the government and banking
> rules have changed since I was made a signatory, two signatories are
> required for a bank account for a non-profit of this size. Aside from the
> Treasurer, the second is usually the founding member or a current board
> member. My question at this point is, does the Clug actually have a second
> signatory? (I do nothing without some sort of reason and this is no
> different. The reason for asking this question is the next query in this
> list.)
>
> 9) In more than four weeks, why have (from what I could discern) at least
> three prospective new members not been offered the opportunity to pay
> membership fees? I am now currently attempting to do the same along with a
> few others and to date, have remained unable to achieve this function or
> even be placed in contact with anyone that can. Why? ("placed in contact"
> refers to two way communication)
>
> 10) When Tier Two members have only two opportunities to vote (at AGM and
> SGM but usually only once a year at AGM) (1.1.b) and Tier One members have
> only what can best be described as a passive, observational presence at
> monthly meetings, why is the Executive distressed at not being able to
> accomplish much and the Tier One Members seem to be controlling the
> vocalizations involved with determining club direction in most of the list
> postings? Have Tier One Members been voting on issues or otherwise having
> a say at the monthly meetings?
>
> These, and others I have not mentioned, could be addressed and
> corrected..... except that the only folks that seem to be interested enough
> to do so are not able to do so. A couple are getting the feeling that the
> fate of the group has already been decided but we are not being told.
> Some are also getting the impression that the current members don't want
> the sort of changes this would imply. I expected to generate considerable
> response with that posting but .... perhaps the mention of increased
> division between Tier one and two scared them? What conclusions would you
> arrive at coming in from the outside as a new or prospective new member?
>
> One other thing that I am finding very curious .... CUUG has been
> mentioned in a few of the posts .... I too am a member of that group but I
> find the assortment of messages that are selected and Cc'd to a specific
> member of that executive rather curious. Given that he could be a member
> to CLUG's mailing list the same as Joe Blo from New York, that is rather a
> strange occurrence. Good thing I am not the naturally suspicious type,
> especially since I sent that very person an email a few days back and have
> never heard back from him. Why, in fact, I was on the phone with someone
> on Friday and mentioned that I noticed someone had done that ... he never
> mentioned the fact that he did it as well.... intentionally avoided it and
> changed the topic .... I'm still too trusting, you know! Always seem to
> get bitten. Same person I made a point of mentioning I had a thing about
> honesty. Go figure .... but that's OK ... I believe in Karma
>
> I had it in my mind that the group had the potential to achieve
> International recognition. I have already attempted to communicate this
> previously undisclosed goal to your treasurer ..... I am currently having
> doubts as to whether or not I will hear back from him at all. Out of five
> emails I have sent him since becoming involved with your group, I have yet
> to receive a reply on any of them. If he had been at the last AGM attempt,
> you would have had a few new Tier Two members. I wonder. I hope that he
> isn't deathly ill or had to deal with a serious personal emergency ... but
> I am inclined to consider that this is not the likely situation. It was
> made known on the lists that new folks were looking to join.
>
> Thoughts about getting this group to Internationally recognized status is
> now the furthest thing from my mind, Shawn. At this point it would seem to
> be a monumental task just getting through the next four weeks (presuming
> the choice is even still available) and one I have been hearing positive
> things from have just left everything in my hands for two of those four
> weeks. NOT
>
> There may not be a treasurer (in fact) and the Vice Prez has announced he
> is stepping down ..... not even sure about the secretary's thoughts about
> all of this .... something I read in the deep dark past about a sinking
> ship comes to mind..... Ten active people would be needed to merely
> operate legally (eight for AGM quorum and two will not make it to meeting
> at any point) ...... might be easier to start a new group with a different
> name (not my idea originally in point of fact) ........ but ..... NOT
>
> A rather large number of the messages seem to contain similar themes...
> how they all think this group is a great idea ... but they think it is a
> waste of their time to take part personally .... two or three hours a month
> out of 720 is way to valuable to spend doing something that they think is a
> good idea.
>
> Tell me Shawn. Honest opinion. If you had answers to most of the above,
> what would you do?
>
> I will understand if you don't reply.
>
> Aside from home and work needs to attend to, working out, designing and
> building mechanical devices to attach to my telescope, teaching myself
> acoustic and electric guitar (not just that easy strumming chords stuff), I
> have two books I am obligated to complete. Guess what I am going to do?
>
> Again, I will understand if you don't reply.
>
> Why should I waste my time on people that don't want to 'waste' theirs?
>
> Say goodbye to the group folks ... but somehow, I get the feeling that was
> the intended goal for a few.
>
>
> Ron
>
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