Thanks for your note, David. I am sorry for not responding to the email
sooner. And I am sorry that I have caused you some frustration. You will
note that I have not given a -1 on the name, or even said that we cannot
do it.
(Unless I explicitly put my mentor hat on, you can assume everything I
say is my personal opinion and not me "handing down" policy. I've only
been here five years, and I am learning the ropes in much the same way.)
You are perhaps right that this name is nominative use. I think I would
be more convinced of that if the rest of the problems were sorted out.
My email was sent with the assumption that this name change was all you
had proposed to do. Clearly, that is not good enough, and you seem to
agree with me on that point. So perhaps there is no problem here.
I also understand and agree with your reasoning that lazy consensus on
the actual name itself was a fine assumption to make given the lack of
response. Though, of course, lazy consensus does not mean members of the
community cannot voice their opinions after the fact, for whatever
reason. (My reason being inattentiveness, and not just trying to
be awkward.)
There is a good chance that when Shane picks this up he, in his
typically good natured and informed perspective, confirms that
"cloudstack-extra" is okay as long as the rest of the page is fixed up
to indicate provenance and clearly set expectation for users, and
clearly indicate that "CloudStack" is a trademark of the Apache
CloudStack project. In which case, we don't have a problem. (Assuming
those things are done.)
And my comment about my doing my job as a mentor poorly was a reaction
to what I perceived as you saying "if you care so much, you do it." And
the reason that is a problem for me is that my goal is to get the
community to care about these things, so that I don't have to. If that
makes sense. Though having said that, I am also interested in
contributing to the project in a wider sense. But I would feel more
comfortable doing that when I am confident the stuff I am doing would
happen anyway.
Sorry if I've caused frustration, again. I can understand why you would
feel frustrated. That was not my intention.
On 20 October 2012 21:43, David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us
<mailto:da...@gnsa.us>> wrote:
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Noah Slater <nsla...@apache.org
<mailto:nsla...@apache.org>> wrote:
> On 20 October 2012 18:10, David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us
<mailto:da...@gnsa.us>> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Noah Slater
<nsla...@apache.org <mailto:nsla...@apache.org>> wrote:
>> > Hmm, "cloudstack-extras" seems to me like something that the
Apache
>> > CloudStack project is providing. I was hoping for Shane's
input on this,
>> > which is why I didn't say anything after looping him in.
>>
>> This sat for over a week with nary a comment.
>
>
> I volunteer my time to this project. Any contributions I make are
on my own
> time. My employer does not pay me to contribute. CloudStack is
> an extremely high traffic project and I am doing the best I can to
> contribute to it.
Let me say that I appreciate your contributions - much of our
readiness to release is because of your tireless efforts to point out
our problems - please don't take my frustration as frustration with
all of your contributions, or even that I disagree with you.
>
>
>> I don't mean to vent my
>> frustration, but if you thought there was a problem why not say
>> something
>
>
> I did.
Forgive me for disagreeing - but there was nothing remotely negative
about your response.
http://markmail.org/message/qs5wt2ucjjdj4tfp
You said you were looping in someone else - expanding the audience,
not a bad thing - there was no indication that you thought that.
One of the things you indicated was problematic in your earlier mail
was the account name github.com/cloudstack
<http://github.com/cloudstack> - which was all I was
attempting to solve at this time. The rest still remain issues - but I
will discuss those in a bit in a followup to your earlier email.
>
> I CCed Shane (our VP of Brand Management) because I wanted his
input. I
> brought up the concern previously on the mailing list, and
nothing much
> seemed to happen. This time, I thought I would loop Shane in to
clarify any
> questions. I guess he was busy too.
>
>
>> How long should I have waited?
>
>
> I don't know. But following up was another option. Sometimes
emails get
> lost in the noise. After 6 days you posted a note to say you were
going to
> go ahead and name the repos. You assumed lazy consensus, but I
think my
> previous notes to the list should have been indication enough
that we had
> not established consensus.
This particular action (renaming the account) was taken in response to
your referenced email wherein you complained about the name.
Your note was not a -1 (and had it been, per
http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management you should
have pointed out what the problems were with the account name choice
or offered an alternative. Your email in response to my proposal of
cloudstack-extras did neither of those, and no one from trademarks@
responded negatively either. How is one not supposed to assume that
there is lazy consensus to change the name to cloudstack-extras out of
that?) How is the account name cloudstack-extras not a nominative use
of the term CloudStack and pointing out that it is 'extra' the
definition of which means outside or in addition to. With the
exception of the CloudStack repo contained therein, all of the
included code is something outside of our in addition to CloudStack.
Every use of the word CloudStack is not a trademark violation - even
if it is in software.
>
>
>> I could have left this as
>> github.com/cloudstack <http://github.com/cloudstack> and not
spent the time and energy to make the
>> move, blog about it, notify the many people who this move
affects etc.
>>
>
> This isn't really an option, as I have outlined before.
You are missing my point, I want the problem solved. I want folks to
realize that CloudStack is at the ASF and for their to be no brand
confusion. What I don't want to do is waste my time when I propose,
and then try and fix some of the problems you outline. I am willing to
do the work to get this done.
>
>
>> While I seek to make sure we do what is best for the project, it's
>> exhausting to try and comply with the demands, only to propose
things,
>> get zero feedback, make the changes, publicize the changes, and then
>> days later get feedback that it isn't acceptable.
>
>
> This is an unfair characterisation of my involvement. I have not
made any
> "demands" of you. I gave repeated, and detailed feedback on this
issue. But
> this seems to have been ignored.
>
Not at all - this was actually an attempt to fix one of the github
issues. It wasn't an attempt to fix them all - it was an attempt to
change the name. In followup to that mail - I sent a mail to the list
saying I was going to do the work to change the name, I tossed out a
proposal and asked if there were any objections to the name. The only
email in response was one of you indicating you were copying
trademarks@ - otherwise nothing negative.
>
>> To that end, I've
>> made you an admin on that github project - please take whatever
action
>> suits you.
>>
>
> This is a disappointing response. Of course, I will take no such
action.
> Despite the fact that I am not prepared to unilaterally change
something as
> important as this Github organisation without all the facts, my
aim is to
> help Apache CloudStack adjust to Apache. If the response to my
guidance is
> "oh well, you better fix it then" then I am obviously doing a
very poor job.
My response is this:
I tried to remedy something you saw as a problem (the github account
name). I proposed a solution on list. I waited a week. I saw no
negative response to the name. I changed it. Two days after I changed
it you come back saying that is still a problem, but not suggesting
any alternatives for identifying a collection of repos for things that
are useful to CloudStack. I don't have any more suggestions to remedy
this. I do wish to empower you as a member and participant of this
community, who is doing work in this community, to not be blocked in
implementing a solution.
>
>
>> > There are still several problems with this page:
>> >
>> > - The "cloudstack-extras" name seems confusing, as stated
above. The
>> > Apache extras is fine, because we are providing it. But
Apache has no
>> > oversight for this repository, so it should clearly
indicate it's
>> > provenance. (i.e. Citrix tools for CloudStack — which would,
>> incidentally,
>> > be a much better name. Perhaps change it to "Citrix"?)
>>
>> We toyed with the idea of Citrix - and I can probably jump
through the
>> hoops for that as well, but Citrix would also have issues with this,
>> as virtually none of the software contained therein belongs to
Citrix,
>> nor do they really have control over it. This is largely code
without
>> a single unifying owner. The only commonality is that it is
focused on
>> CloudStack. Most of the items contained therein have been
developed by
>> people working on and around cloudstack. For instance, Edmunds.com,
>> Opscode, and Enstratus employees wrote knife-cloudstack with no
Citrix
>> contributions whatsoever.
>>
>
> I don't know what to suggest then. Perhaps "cloudstack-extras" is
not such
> a big problem. I will defer to Shane, who has way more experience
with this
> than I do.
This is essentially where I am at - I have no idea for a better name
that doesn't involve the word cloudstack for identifying this.
The remaining issues still do exist, and they still need to be solved,
and eventually we will.
--
NS
