Without wanting to get involved in this discussion, I'd just like to point out that there's plenty of anti-IntelliJ trolling goes on in the Clojure community as well. The trick is just to ignore it, something that I mostly manage to do.
I'd also like to second Jony's suggestion that we also talk a bit about data science, which was the original question. On 31 March 2015 at 01:53, Fluid Dynamics <a2093...@trbvm.com> wrote: > On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 7:23:00 AM UTC-4, Tassilo Horn wrote: >> >> Fluid Dynamics <a209...@trbvm.com> writes: >> >> > * Further to the resource-usage issue, i can more easily use Emacs >> > remotely over low-bandwidth links than i could use an IDE. >> > >> > Typical home and mobile connection speeds are multiple MBPS these days. >> >> Still, running Eclipse or some other IDE via X forwarding isn't too much >> fun even with X2Go. >> > > Most people these days also have all their devices, even the handheld > ones, powerful enough to run a decent IDE locally, which can work with > local files or connect to a remote git repository. This obviates the need > to SSH or telnet into a remote host and run both the editor AND the > repository there, or to use X forwarding. > > > Unfortunately, one MUST do all of that and CANNOT use it as a black >> > box, because it is the software analogue of a computer with no >> > keyboard or monitor or anything else resembling a user interface, so >> > one must toggle everything in and know the hardware internals >> > backwards and forwards to get anything done. :) >> >> That's nonsense. As soon as you have made yourself acquainted with the >> basic Emacs terminology and concepts, getting started with Clojure >> development is a piece of cake. Of course, > > > the devil is in the details. Including the implementation details that > leak out all over the place, starting with the ubiquitous use of the term > "buffer" in user-facing documentation. > > >> Emacs follows the unicode standard and represents characters as >> UTF8-encoded codepoints. >> > > All very useful, right up until the time comes to display such strings to > ttya0 :) > > > Rather, the last time I tried using emacs, I seem to recall always >> > ending up with this sequence of events: >> > >> > a) I am trying to do some task X, for which the obvious key combination >> bleeps >> > or does something weird but definitely doesn't do X for some reason. >> > b) Soon, I have a split pane with my document on the left and the help >> files on >> > the right, with the latter open to a page on task X and the input focus >> in it. >> > c) A little bit later, I have a split pane with my document on the >> left, the >> > input focus in my document, and the help pane on the right open to a >> page on >> > how to switch focus between panes, and I don't remember the long and >> > complicated sequence of keystrokes needed to perform task X any more >> because it >> > was deleted from my brain's short term memory to remember the long and >> > complicated sequence of keystrokes that is how one says "alt+tab" in >> the >> > obscure and archaic dialect known as emacsese. >> > d) Repeat b) and c) a few times, while experiencing an acute event of >> abnormal >> > pre-menopausal hair loss. >> > e) Give up and fire up Notepad, Eclipse, or whatever seems best suited >> to >> > current task. ;) >> >> I think with "help pane" you mean a window showing the Emacs info >> manual. > > > Oh, if only. If it had been an actual window, I'd have been able to use > OS-native window switching to switch between it and the document I was > working on, and leave the help window open to something other than the how > to switch panes topic! :) > > You can have as many of them open as you like, say, one for >> "task X", and one for "switching focus between windows". >> > > And then have what, two 27x24 and a 26x24 keyhole to squint through at > everything? :) Less a couple of lines at the bottom for status > notifications and the little command input area, of course. > > > * The Emacs ecosystem is growing rapidly; http://melpa.org/ >> > currently lists ~2400 packages ("extensions" or "addons") >> > available for easy installation via Emacs' package.el UI. >> > >> > >> > I wonder how anyone can find anything in that mess. >> >> Searching might be a start. >> > > If searching in emacs was as intuitive as control-F and type in a > substring to look for, it likely would be. :) > > > The Java and Clojure IDEs are probably each sandwiched amongst >> > hundreds of consecutive entries >> >> Yes, of course. Hey, how to people use apt-get/packman/yum/whatever? >> The packages needed for "task X" are sandwiched between tens of >> thousands of unrelated packages. >> > > For something like Ubuntu, there's probably a nicely designed searchable > website not entirely unlike the Firefox addons site Moz runs. Given the > vintage of the emacs "user experience" (I use this term loosely), its > version probably is a textual alphabetical list with a blinking prompt at > the bottom, with no perceived affordances of any way to search or jump > nonlinearly within the list, and unless you're lucky perhaps not even an > obvious way to page down and page up. (The keys on every keyboard bearing > those precise labels, no doubt, beep and do nothing else, or else do things > entirely unrelated to paging down and up, this being emacs we're discussing > after all.) > > > all the rest of which are for languages nobody has ever heard of >> > outside of one obscure city near Bernhöfen, or that nobody has used >> > since 1987, or that nobody has used period because the whole thing was >> > invented as an obscure joke (e.g. Befunge). >> >> I don't see how support for niche languages is a bad thing. >> > > If there was any realistic hope of a search interface any reasonably > computer-savvy person could just sit down and use, it wouldn't be. Without > such a hope, clutter becomes a catastrophe. > > Oh, no doubt someone in emacsland has managed to notice Tim Berners-Lee's > newfangled invention by now, perhaps a few weeks or a month ago, and threw > up a web site with downloadable items, and no doubt using these downloads, > instead of whatever inbuilt package management, entails performing a > 27-step manual installation procedure whose instructions, though thorough, > are written assuming nobody in the audience isn't at least working on > getting their master's degree in emacsology, if not already a postdoc or > something. :) > > > Yes, there can be a steeper initial learning curve with Emacs than >> > with IDEs, >> > >> > This easily qualifies as a very strong candidate to be crowned >> > understatement of the century, and we're not even 1/6 of the way >> > through this one yet. Steeper? It's like comparing a gentle hill to >> > the part of a roller coaster track that's more than halfway up the >> > side of a loop-the-loop. The emacs learning curve is so steep it has >> > overhangs! >> >> Every newbie should run through the tutorial once (C-h t) in which all >> important concepts are discussed. After that, you are initiated and >> should be able to look up documentation yourself. >> > > If said newbie has an eidetic memory, then you are likely correct. > Otherwise, after reading the tutorial they will spend the next several > hours realizing that they forgot this, and forgot that, and forgot that > other thing, and forgot an additional 119 miscellaneous things, all of > which were too long (meta-shift-x-what?), arbitrary, and > non-mnemonic-in-the-least for any mere human to retain more than one or two > of them without hours, days, or perhaps even weeks of intensive drilling. I > don't suppose there's an emacs boot camp out there somewhere where this > takes place? Otherwise, the number of people that have overcome all of the > issues I witnessed to become some kind of proficient with emacs is > difficult to explain, as eidetic memories simply aren't particularly > prevalent in the population at large. > > > Have they gotten around to adding a feature that makes it simple and >> > intuitive to switch between the help pane and a document pane without >> > having to navigate the help pane away from the thing you can't >> > memorize to some other, pane-switching thing you also can't memorize? >> >> `C-x o' is the standard key for cycling thru windows ("panes"). > > > "Standard"? AFAIK it is used by the one single application, while to a > fairly good approximation ALL THE REST of the world's software to which > it's even applicable use control-tab (or command-tab, on Macintoshes). I'm > quite interested to see whichever dictionary contains the definition of > "standard" you are using. :) > > And to browse as many info manuals simultaneously so that you don't have >> to navigate away from one topic to read another, you can have as many >> open info buffers as you wish. > > > I must confess to some amusement at the image that comes to mind of what > it must look like when the terminal window is divided into more than a very > small handful of panes. To me at this point, even 80x22 would be like > peering through a mail slot at my code whilst wearing a pirate eyepatch. > > The command that you invoke to open the >> documentation also tells you how, i.e., the solution is documented in >> `C-h k C-h i' ("Please Emacs, describe the command which gets executed >> by the key `C-h i'."). >> > > Pardon me, but you may have mistaken me for somebody who has already > learned Swahili. :) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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