The problem with Java is you can write a ton of it easily with Intellij (my facorite IDE), but Intellij cant read that code for you, so now you have a novel to wade through when the code is revisited. On Nov 6, 2011 11:49 AM, "Dennis Haupt" <d.haup...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > "special cases" that depend on mutable state are evil. i avoid mutable > states as much as possible, no matter which language i am using. > what i meant were cases where i roughly think about 3/4 of all cases, > start coding and along the way i notice that in one case in need > another input parameter for my function and have to refactor > everything i have written so far. > > my experience is that you need to balance out planning and actual > coding. there's a limit for planning. if you plan too much, it won't > help. you'll just introduce problems and won't notice it because you > are skipping the reality check. reality never misses a case, but even > the smartest guy/gal does :) > > what i do in <random oo language> is to just start somewhere and code > recursively. as soon as something gets to complex, i split it up or do > minor refactorings. this works pretty good and i rarely end up in a > situation where i have to go back a big step. i rarely lose speed, > even if i encounter a surprise. > > i'll become faster once i get used to clojure, but i doubt i'll be > able to be as fast as in scala or java. this is not because the > language itself is bad. java is really verbose, but that doesn't > matter at all. i don't write java code. i use intellij idea. it writes > and rewrites java code for me. > with equal tool support, i'd prefer clojure over java. > > > > > > Am 06.11.2011 14:48, schrieb Colin Yates: > > But aren't the "edge cases" fewer given the notion that functions > > should be entirely defined by their inputs as oppose to being > > dependant on mutable state external to he function, in the most > > part. > > > > I am agreeing with you, and find these real world experiences > > incredibly useful. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On 6 Nov 2011, at 13:03, Dennis Haupt <d.haup...@googlemail.com> > > wrote: > > > > Am 06.11.2011 13:44, schrieb Colin Yates: > >>>> I have a hunch (as oppose to IME as I don't have any yet :)) > >>>> that Clojure doesn't require as much due to at least the > >>>> following points: > >>>> > >>>> - there is much less incidental complexity and ceremony > >>>> required to manage (and therefore refactor) - implementations > >>>> in Clojure require more thought and are much more focused on > >>>> one thing then in Java, therefore there is a much higher > >>>> chance that you get it right the first time > > > > this is a double edged sword. you *do* get it right *if* you think > > it through, but reality is often more complex than you assume. if > > you suddenly see that you forgot to handle special case x, you are > > punished harder than in <random statically typed oo language>. > > > > in oo, you can do a few "emergency hacks" before everything > > becomes unmaintainable. in clojure, i could not do this without > > committing maintenance suicide immediately. for each case that > > popped up surprisingly, i had to do a bit of refactoring. > > > > that whole "dynamically typed" thing is creeping me out. > > > > > >>>> > >>>> To put it another way, how much refactoring we we do in Java > >>>> is down to managing the complexity of the problems inherent > >>>> in Java the language; complecting state and identity for > >>>> example. > >>>> > >>>> A concrete example: I know I often refactor code out of one > >>>> class into a utility once that becomes useful by other > >>>> classes. The reason I need to do this is because in java the > >>>> functionality is ring fenced by the data that it works on > >>>> (I.e. encapsulation in the container called a class). In > >>>> clojure that association can be made but right off the get-go > >>>> data and functionality are separate. > >>>> > >>>> Just my two-pence worth and I still haven't written more than > >>>> 2 lines of clojure so it probably isn't worth 2p :) > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>> > >>>> On 5 Nov 2011, at 12:16, Dennis Haupt > >>>> <d.haup...@googlemail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> hi, > >>>> > >>>> i'm half done with my asteroids clone. i stumbled over a few > >>>> problems and wanted to know how others already solved them > >>>> :) > >>>> > >>>> i am used to "less concrete programming". i ask my tools to > >>>> do the actual analysis and coding for me: * where is that > >>>> used? * rename that * show me all errors * add a parameter > >>>> here * autocomplete this for me, i am too lazy to even > >>>> remember the exact method name * show me a list of all > >>>> methods and fields starting with an "e" that fit in here. i > >>>> know the one i want is in that list. > >>>> > >>>> as elegant as clojure may be as a language, it's dragging me > >>>> down to almost native text editing which i did more than 10 > >>>> years ago when i wrote a game in turbo pascal. > >>>> > >>>> how did you solve these problem and get some tool-support? > >>>> or don't you miss it because of something i am not aware of? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to > >>>>> the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, > >>>>> send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from > >>>>> new members are moderated - please be patient with your > >>>>> first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, > >>>>> visit this group at > >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > >>>> > > > > > >> > >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the > >> Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email > >> to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are > >> moderated - please be patient with your first post. To > >> unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this > >> group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > > > > > - -- > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJOtrqmAAoJENRtux+h35aGq3sP/0qqZLVcGeeGO54WtKZhuRiN > s3aZRilvzY3mWjZGbKaDMNkqK+BeHLCwg+Pvs9SyJuflF2cb8OGilLahGhIICmiQ > Lm4jPwx0sK5YzCZmoYUui3ruUz8Q2mFatAjXsLpXh4ent8mnIyjqi9oS932SVJKz > 6YrU+qjCbz8+S2TbJjI9LIqvwXoEeaD4A6qWhXcTraji/+UohUZlkGtEFgZIf6vW > r3Stgp0w1w+a04dxfJipBtu8X5eOZvHNjhUp/7T1D4T/aRkzs2jnDwvF+zmA9aat > bQswDrYiabqHpnwIPXk92+I6YCLnSF9jw8Fbw6XpgrAFjshikRh1a0PUoYL+wXPV > EDCb925mmKF/0mjCrbEFxVMOwxk11rNqqWuVPE80kMfVpY/hNChBXgbysJ4koff4 > V+Tm0fd5iLjwc9oBXkOm+3dccQx0cIj4hFdWTfzn89PQRJFE85L7Q3AiMUvBUHzC > K+fksovbdWtdxIg8ZnOuGkaYEgsJ+zKy6WHOFfi0f0mYkosDJ3ZEcdyiglBKaO83 > VOq8MfqgGhRKHwdD7sB6gm+AhnO6uDLw1fSiKFb25UF0htBDrOkoRai3Gm8jP6IT > 4+g3EK0u+IYwD2rTo5A18aj2o2eS56v99Bh9u+0FQ+5EZNzbVzwgDdy3ZH4cglVs > 1JRFJz2BVO8XfUmpHFAd > =dbqy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
