-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 "special cases" that depend on mutable state are evil. i avoid mutable states as much as possible, no matter which language i am using. what i meant were cases where i roughly think about 3/4 of all cases, start coding and along the way i notice that in one case in need another input parameter for my function and have to refactor everything i have written so far.
my experience is that you need to balance out planning and actual coding. there's a limit for planning. if you plan too much, it won't help. you'll just introduce problems and won't notice it because you are skipping the reality check. reality never misses a case, but even the smartest guy/gal does :) what i do in <random oo language> is to just start somewhere and code recursively. as soon as something gets to complex, i split it up or do minor refactorings. this works pretty good and i rarely end up in a situation where i have to go back a big step. i rarely lose speed, even if i encounter a surprise. i'll become faster once i get used to clojure, but i doubt i'll be able to be as fast as in scala or java. this is not because the language itself is bad. java is really verbose, but that doesn't matter at all. i don't write java code. i use intellij idea. it writes and rewrites java code for me. with equal tool support, i'd prefer clojure over java. Am 06.11.2011 14:48, schrieb Colin Yates: > But aren't the "edge cases" fewer given the notion that functions > should be entirely defined by their inputs as oppose to being > dependant on mutable state external to he function, in the most > part. > > I am agreeing with you, and find these real world experiences > incredibly useful. > > Sent from my iPad > > On 6 Nov 2011, at 13:03, Dennis Haupt <d.haup...@googlemail.com> > wrote: > > Am 06.11.2011 13:44, schrieb Colin Yates: >>>> I have a hunch (as oppose to IME as I don't have any yet :)) >>>> that Clojure doesn't require as much due to at least the >>>> following points: >>>> >>>> - there is much less incidental complexity and ceremony >>>> required to manage (and therefore refactor) - implementations >>>> in Clojure require more thought and are much more focused on >>>> one thing then in Java, therefore there is a much higher >>>> chance that you get it right the first time > > this is a double edged sword. you *do* get it right *if* you think > it through, but reality is often more complex than you assume. if > you suddenly see that you forgot to handle special case x, you are > punished harder than in <random statically typed oo language>. > > in oo, you can do a few "emergency hacks" before everything > becomes unmaintainable. in clojure, i could not do this without > committing maintenance suicide immediately. for each case that > popped up surprisingly, i had to do a bit of refactoring. > > that whole "dynamically typed" thing is creeping me out. > > >>>> >>>> To put it another way, how much refactoring we we do in Java >>>> is down to managing the complexity of the problems inherent >>>> in Java the language; complecting state and identity for >>>> example. >>>> >>>> A concrete example: I know I often refactor code out of one >>>> class into a utility once that becomes useful by other >>>> classes. The reason I need to do this is because in java the >>>> functionality is ring fenced by the data that it works on >>>> (I.e. encapsulation in the container called a class). In >>>> clojure that association can be made but right off the get-go >>>> data and functionality are separate. >>>> >>>> Just my two-pence worth and I still haven't written more than >>>> 2 lines of clojure so it probably isn't worth 2p :) >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On 5 Nov 2011, at 12:16, Dennis Haupt >>>> <d.haup...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> hi, >>>> >>>> i'm half done with my asteroids clone. i stumbled over a few >>>> problems and wanted to know how others already solved them >>>> :) >>>> >>>> i am used to "less concrete programming". i ask my tools to >>>> do the actual analysis and coding for me: * where is that >>>> used? * rename that * show me all errors * add a parameter >>>> here * autocomplete this for me, i am too lazy to even >>>> remember the exact method name * show me a list of all >>>> methods and fields starting with an "e" that fit in here. i >>>> know the one i want is in that list. >>>> >>>> as elegant as clojure may be as a language, it's dragging me >>>> down to almost native text editing which i did more than 10 >>>> years ago when i wrote a game in turbo pascal. >>>> >>>> how did you solve these problem and get some tool-support? >>>> or don't you miss it because of something i am not aware of? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>> the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, >>>>> send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from >>>>> new members are moderated - please be patient with your >>>>> first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, >>>>> visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>>> > > >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email >> to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are >> moderated - please be patient with your first post. 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