Many thanks to all those who are helping me!Inviato da smartphone Samsung
Galaxy.
-------- Messaggio originale --------Da: cctech-requ...@classiccmp.org Data:
11/06/19 19:00 (GMT+01:00) A: cct...@classiccmp.org Oggetto: cctech Digest,
Vol 57, Issue 11 Send cctech mailing list submissions to
cctech@classiccmp.orgTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctechor, via email, send a message
with subject or body 'help' to cctech-request@classiccmp.orgYou can reach the
person managing the list at cctech-owner@classiccmp.orgWhen replying,
please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of
cctech digest..."Today's Topics: 1. Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated
Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in MAME (Pontus Pihlgren) 2. Re:
Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven) 3. Re: Modems and external
dialers. (Liam Proven) 4. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Peter Corlett)
5. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Peter Corlett) 6. Re: Modems and
external dialers. (Liam Proven) 7. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam
Proven) 8. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (a...@alanlee.org) (dwight) 9. Old soaftware
and documentation (Electronics Plus) 10. June 22 (Electronics Plus) 11. Re:
Old soaftware and documentation (Grant Taylor) 12. Re: Old soaftware and
documentation (Noel Chiappa) 13. RE: Old soaftware and documentation
(Electronics Plus) 14. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Tomasz Rola) 15. Re:
HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger) 16. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Tony Duell) 17. Re:
HP9816 PAL16L8 (Chuck Guzis) 18. RE: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Birkel) 19. What
Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick? (Liam Proven) 20. Re: Modems and external
dialers. (Liam Proven) 21. RE: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick? (Paul
Birkel) 22. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger) 23. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul
Berger)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message:
1Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:56:30 +0200From: Pontus Pihlgren
<pon...@update.uu.se>To: Al Kossow <a...@bitsavers.org>, "General Discussion:
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: SGI
IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL graphics) running in
MAMEMessage-ID: <20190610095630.2a3dnxf6dvc75...@update.uu.se>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-asciiThat is impressive! Is it close to real time we are
seeing?/POn Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 10:38:35AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:>
pretty cool..> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ>
------------------------------Message: 2Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:57:34
+0200From: Liam Proven <lpro...@gmail.com>Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external
dialers.Message-ID:
<CAMTenCF_GC6fxT4A0GHaMNBhWfK3J48=j1lueoqko+t9tc6...@mail.gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:45, Stefan Skoglund
<stefan.skogl...@agj.net> wrote:>> The economist wrote about this (>
https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/06/08/how-the-pursuit-of-leisure-drives-internet-use>
)>> The current situation is this:> it is much more important for Apple and
Samsung to sell overpriced> things to consumers which then basically only will
be used to play> games, look on sport games and youtube films.Fair point.And in
the tropics, it is more important than ever that a device issealed, waterproof,
has no moving parts, etc. -- to keep it tough.Cheap & replaceable are more
important than convenient and repairable.> What you used the Psion for will
only sell about 4 percent of apples> volumes last year....> The screen of the
machine i write this on, stands on a sun sparcstation> 10.> If i had that
machine running well i would be as productive writing> reports on that one as
on the asus tower which i now uses.I know what you mean, and I agree.I just
wish a few more companies thought like Planet Computers andtried to make
devices for rich niches, rather than the cheap
massmarket...https://planetcom.squarespace.com/-- Liam Proven - Profile:
https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google
Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven@gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven -
Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+
WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829
053------------------------------Message: 3Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:58:53
+0200From: Liam Proven <lpro...@gmail.com>Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external
dialers.Message-ID:
<camtench2lpmgq62_ghjos0g-tfczzc9jgyl_wpv4xartfn9...@mail.gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:49, Stefan Skoglund
<stefan.skogl...@agj.net> wrote:>> I also hate my samsung a5 mobile - the
stupid thing> doesnt have something which the two ericsson mobiles i used
before (and> a nokia and i believe a samsung to) had.>> Namely a small led
which was on all the time. A great thing when> you need to look for the damn
things while it is dark.>> For example in the car or in bed or out in the
nature inside a tent.>> Stupid little things...>> that little led usually
changed colour when the battery became low.Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a
power LED. It pulsed softly when asleep.The iMac that has replaced it has
nothing. I can't tell if it is on,off, asleep or what.The cost saving of this
change must be too small to measure. :-)-- Liam Proven - Profile:
https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google
Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven@gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven -
Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+
WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829
053------------------------------Message: 4Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:44:50
+0200From: Peter Corlett <ab...@cabal.org.uk>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external
dialers.Message-ID: <20190610134450.qd7dmsed67fyy...@mooli.org.uk>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:57:34PM +0200, Liam
Proven via cctalk wrote:[...]> I just wish a few more companies thought like
Planet Computers and tried to> make devices for rich niches, rather than the
cheap mass market...> https://planetcom.squarespace.com/So long as said
companies don't just make yet another Android device based on acheap-and-nasty
Mediatek SOC which requires proprietary Android-only drivers towork well, and
then make misleading claims about Linux support.The Gemini's keyboard was very
much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,but since it was being
crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff toododgy for Kickstarter, I
decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, ifanything, would be
delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatekchipset, I lost all
interest. Been there, done that, never again.Planet are right now crowdfunding
their new "Cosmo Communicator". They haveapparently learned nothing as it also
has a Mediatek chipset, and yet theycontinue to disingenuously claim Linux
support. I shall be giving this one awide berth too.Third time lucky, eh? Maybe
they should start talking to the Raspberry Pipeople who actually know a thing
or two about getting Linux working well onmobile
chipsets.------------------------------Message: 5Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019
15:51:11 +0200From: Peter Corlett <ab...@cabal.org.uk>To: "General Discussion:
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems
and external dialers.Message-ID:
<20190610135111.abvyum4mdwmn3...@mooli.org.uk>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=iso-8859-1On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:58:53PM +0200, Liam Proven via
cctalk wrote:[...]> Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a power LED. It pulsed
softly when asleep.> The iMac that has replaced it has nothing. I can't tell if
it is on,> off, asleep or what.> The cost saving of this change must be too
small to measure. :-)Adding pockets ruins the look, or something.They're not
even charging "only" ?54.99 for a Thunderbolt-to-power-LED dongle,so this
particular essential component wasn't removed for the usual
reason.------------------------------Message: 6Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:44:44
+0200From: Liam Proven <lpro...@gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external
dialers.Message-ID:
<CAMTenCGMzCwPjO9mwdkH4HRaypZpk6HdpbqO=tfmsbmk8yt...@mail.gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:45, Peter Corlett via
cctalk<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:>> So long as said companies don't just
make yet another Android device based on a> cheap-and-nasty Mediatek SOC which
requires proprietary Android-only drivers to> work well, and then make
misleading claims about Linux support.Don't all phone chipsets require Android
drivers?And on that point, so does the RasPi.> The Gemini's keyboard was very
much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,> but since it was being
crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff too> dodgy for Kickstarter, I
decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, if> anything, would be
delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatek> chipset, I lost all
interest. Been there, done that, never again.You pays your money, etc. I'm
quite happy with mine. I don't use it asa phone but for taking notes at
conferences and events, for instance,it's _superb_.> Planet are right now
crowdfunding their new "Cosmo Communicator". They have> apparently learned
nothing as it also has a Mediatek chipset, and yet they> continue to
disingenuously claim Linux support. I shall be giving this one a> wide berth
too.On their sales volumes, I think they have to go with whatever is cheapand
customisable on the Chinese market.One of the sad things about the ARM market
is that there is noindustry standard, no baseline to aim for. There isn't even
standardfirmware. Lots of devices don't have firmware at all, so every
Linuxport is a bare-metal thing, starting with hardware initialisation. Ayear
or 2 after it goes off the market, it's junk, as nothing willsupport it any
more.ARM64 is trying to impose a requirement for UEFI, I believe, but [a]the
legions of cheap kit makers don't care and just ignore it, and [b]UEFI is
horrible.> Third time lucky, eh? Maybe they should start talking to the
Raspberry Pi> people who actually know a thing or two about getting Linux
working well on> mobile chipsets.Via big binary BLOBs, yeah, and a weird
bootloader that means that theGPU initialises the system and (I hear) retains
some degree of controlover interrupts, making it more or less impossible to run
a properhypervisor on the things.-- Liam Proven - Profile:
https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google
Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven@gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven -
Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+
WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829
053------------------------------Message: 7Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:49:04
+0200From: Liam Proven <lpro...@gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external
dialers.Message-ID:
<camtencepxvkpj6cbejuhsxgcjg0emf5cfpdlz0or7hspmry...@mail.gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:51, Peter Corlett via
cctalk<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:>> Adding pockets ruins the look, or
something.Yup.They're going beyond the realm of their own previous products
intosuch severe minimalism it's becoming inconvenient.I want an LED to tell me
my charge/power status, message status, etc.,thank you. I want a physical home
button. I want a physical headphonesocket. If you want me to buy a ?1000
tablet, then I want multipleports, USB and Lightning or whatever. I want to
connect a keyboard andheadphones and charge it all at once, thanks.Since I
can't have that, I bought a cheapo Chinese tablet instead, forless than the
cost of a second-hand iPad of similar spec. It does thejob.It is very pleasant
that I have come to a point in my life where I canafford nice toys like a
(second-hand) Retina iMac and what was still ahigh-end iPhone when I got it
(also 2nd hand).However, so many features are disappearing from the newer
models thatI am not sure they're going to keep me for long...-- Liam Proven -
Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google
Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven@gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven -
Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+
WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829
053------------------------------Message: 8Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:46:38
+0000From: dwight <dkel...@hotmail.com>To: Piero Andreini
<pieroandre...@vodafone.it>, "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"
<cct...@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8
(a...@alanlee.org)Message-ID:
<byapr01mb560809829422da4be9d9348ca3...@byapr01mb5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"Again, is it just an address
decoder or something more complicated. One can often determine the logic by
looking at a schematic and knowing what it needs to
do.Dwight________________________________From: cctech
<cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Piero Andreini via cctech
<cct...@classiccmp.org>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:58 AMTo:
cctech@classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (a...@alanlee.org)> L series
are combinatorial only. You (or someone who has a working one)> should be able
to figure out a logic map by either running through all> the input permutation
or putting it in a reader that will do the same> (vs reading the fuse data).>>
-Alan>> Good luck.unfortunately I don't have a working PAL, that's why I'm
looking for the jedec file------------------------------Message: 9Date: Mon, 10
Jun 2019 14:04:23 -0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sa...@elecplus.com>To:
"'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID:
<04ac01d51fbf$516bc6d0$f4435470$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I
do not want toship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and get
it?I would like it gone before this Saturday. Cindy CroxtonElectronics Plus1613
Water StreetKerrville, TX 78028830-370-3239 cellsa...@elecplus.com ---This
email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message:
10Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:05:56 -0500From: "Electronics Plus"
<sa...@elecplus.com>To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: June 22Message-ID:
<04b101d51fbf$88a30fa0$99e92ee0$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"My warehouse will be open on Sat, Jun 22, from 10-3 for
anyone that wants tocome scrounge. I am 1 hour from San Antonio, or 2.5 hours
from Austin, or4-5 hours from Houston or Dallas (in decent traffic and
weather). Cindy CroxtonElectronics Plus1613 Water StreetKerrville, TX
78028830-370-3239 cellsa...@elecplus.com ---This email has been checked for
viruses by Avast antivirus
software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message:
11Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:07:40 -0600From: Grant Taylor
<cct...@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net>To: cctalk@classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: Old
soaftware and documentationMessage-ID:
<6bb191f9-baff-3bb6-6811-1b38f6291...@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 6/10/19 1:04 PM, Electronics Plus
via cctalk wrote:> I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I
do not want to> ship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and
get it?> > I would like it gone before this Saturday.How large is large? Are
we talking fills a desk top? A Gaylord? More?Please take pictures of it.
Hopefully the titles / versions can be identified.I'll socialize it with people
in my community.-- Grant. . . .unix ||
die------------------------------Message: 12Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:15:30
-0400 (EDT)From: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)To:
cctalk@classiccmp.orgCc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.eduSubject: Re: Old soaftware and
documentationMessage-ID: <20190610201530.481df18c...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >
From: Cindy Croxton > I have a large qty to donateRoughly what does it go to
- old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?
Noel------------------------------Message: 13Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:33:55
-0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sa...@elecplus.com>To: "'Noel Chiappa'"
<j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts'" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: Old soaftware and
documentationMessage-ID: <052f01d51fcb$d3a13fc0$7ae3bf40$@com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > From: Cindy Croxton > I have a large
qty to donateRoughly what does it go to - old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?
NoelDOS/early Windows/Tandy for the most partA small amount of SCO and other
odd Unix type stuff.Cindy---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast
antivirus
software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message:
14Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 22:57:39 +0200From: Tomasz Rola <rto...@ceti.pl>To:
cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external
dialers.Message-ID: <20190610205739.gb20...@tau1.ceti.pl>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 01:43:40PM +0200, Liam
Proven via cctalk wrote:> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 20:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk>
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:> >> > I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS
WATCH) does IRDA.> > I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a
piece of> > crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.> [...]> > Now? No keyboards at all.>
> No, I am not happy about that, either.> > I could read the screens of my
Psion and Nokia in bright sunshine.> American-design ones are slowly edging
back towards that, but it's> still difficult. Daylight-readable screens have
disappeared from the> market.> > I'm not happy about that, either.> > My Psions
and Nokias had bulletproof OSes that lasted for years> without a single update,
and yes, they were Internet-connected by the> last few generations. They ran in
a few tens of megabytes of> nonvolatile storage.> > Now, my tablet and iPhone
and Android phones need *at least* 3 or 4> apps updating every day. If I don't
use one for a few weeks, it's just> like Windows -- I have to do half an hour
of updates before I can use> it. The OS needs to be replaced every month or two
to fix all the> flaws in it, and that's a gigabyte or so of storage.> > I am
*furious* about this.I share the sentiment and I guess I could give similar
description(yours was very interesting, BTW). If I had a privilege to
ownPsion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was already bowing outof the
PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed FamiliarLinux on it and
hoped there would be a future when PDAs can bebought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But
while researching, I could on oneocassion tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx
keyboard in a shop. Ithink about this keyboard to this very day.About displays:
my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were alsoused in other handheld
PDAs of the time). It was called transflectiveLCD. They are easily recognized,
because the light can be permamentlyturned off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight,
i.e. a layer ofleds/incandescents which shine through from the back of the
displaytowards the user. Transflectives have special reflective layer in
theback, and a diode on a side. The external light reflects and shinesback
through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish description, but Ihope I have
got it right.Anyway, such display looked best in full sun. The one in 3630
coulddisplay 4096 colors (with spectrum slightly bent towards pinky). LateriPAQ
models could do 65k colors (again slightly bent, but this timemuch less
visible). I used mine PDA as a proto ebook reader, lots ofhtml and pdb material
read outdoors. The same kind of LCD was to befound in many phones.For whatever
reason, morons decided the shiny LCD should be next bestthing. And
transflective got lost. Just like this. Nada. Appears likethe very meaning of
"mobile" changed during last twenty years - firstit meant "outdoors" and now it
means "from one couch to another,indoors".> "The JesusPhone, I swear it is
smiling at me: Come to me. come to me> and be saved. The luscious curves, the
polished glissade of the icons> in the multi-touch interface - whoever designed
that thing is an> intuitive illusionist, I realise fuzzily as my fingertip
closes in on> the screen: That's at least a class five glamour."> (Charles
Stross, /The Fuller Memorandum/)> > They're very shiny. They do a lot.> > But I
had a better *phone* and a better *PDA* 20 years ago. The whole> is much less
than the sum of its parts.Twenty years ago people using such tech were easily
falling into"elite users" of some kind. Either because of earnings or because
theyhad nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them - and themachines
reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again, machinesreflect this.I am
rather baffled whenever I read Psion had milion users and yetthis was not
enough for them. Plenty of people would considerthemselves lucky if their
books, cars or games were bought by thismany. The attitude of Psion managers is
totally disgusting for me,unless I had not taken something into account.Perhaps
niche technical products should be sold by those whounderstand niche markets. I
imagine that if I came to manager of nicherecording label and suggested he
should get rid of musicians and startrecording some generic crap outsourced
from other side of the world to"reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the
window with his boot in myarse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar
proposition tomanager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and
someof his shares. But maybe I am romantic.-- Regards,Tomasz Rola--** A C
programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **** As the answer,
master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **** directory. And then the C
programmer became enlightened... ****
**** Tomasz Rola
mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com
**------------------------------Message: 15Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:23:15
-0300From: Paul Berger <phb....@gmail.com>To: Piero Andreini via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:
<a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50...@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini via cctalk
wrote:> desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part #
1820-2991I pulled the CPU board out of my HP9816 and was happy to see that the
component in question is in a socket however there is a problem.? The component
in mine is a HAL16L8 note the "H" I found a datasheet and apparently in the
early days of PALs at MMI you could do your development using PALs and then
send the equations to MMI and they would produce a mask programmed semi custom
chip with the same logic.? The problem with this is it does not have a program
ROM like a traditional PAL so you cannot extract a valid JEDEC from it, I
confirmed this by dumping it as a PAL16L8 and then decompiling the JED file to
extract the equations and they are junk, even just browsing the RAW JED looked
suspect.We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can run trough all
combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can develop equations that
way as long as they did not do anything like use feedback to create registers
as one person suggested could be
done.Paul.------------------------------Message: 16Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019
04:44:31 +0100From: Tony Duell <ard.p850...@gmail.com>To: Paul Berger
<phb....@gmail.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:
<cahkuccywk3kmoa9_4arz5r_ymqyv2t+tnn8rp8mohf9hsqg...@mail.gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:23 AM Paul Berger via
cctalk<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:>>> On 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini
via cctalk wrote:> > desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position
U69 part # 1820-2991> We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can
run trough all> combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can
develop> equations that way as long as they did not do anything like use
feedback> to create registers as one person suggested could be done.You can
detect sequential logic in the PAL by :For each combination of inputs : Read
the outputs Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice
versa) Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they havechanged
then there's a sequential function on that input Check the next input
Check the next combination of inputsIt is my guess that the logic in this PAL
is much the same as the DMA logic,etc (but cut down to only support DMA channel
0) of the HP98624 HPIB card.This board uses only TTL, no PAL, so you might be
able to work out suitableequations from
that.-tony------------------------------Message: 17Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019
21:19:09 -0700From: Chuck Guzis <ccl...@sydex.com>To: Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:
<e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dac...@sydex.com>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:> > You can detect
sequential logic in the PAL by :> > For each combination of inputs :> Read
the outputs> Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice
versa)> Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have>
changed then there's a sequential function on that input> Check the next
input> Check the next combination of inputsFor purely combinatorial PLDs, see
my blog entry on the subject over atvcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few
PALs some years ago anddocumented the process.FWIW, the setup to do this was a
few TTL ICs connected to the parallelport of a PC. Nowadays, I'd probably do
the same with an inexpensiveMCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a
certain amount offlexibility to the process.Basically, you separate the inputs
from the outputs and then run allcombinations of the inputs, observing the
outputs. If the tristatefeature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover
the differencebetween a tristated pin and a genuine input.There are a number of
tools to perform reduction on the results, such asLogic Friday. After that,
you're left with a bunch of logic equationsthat can be fed into a PAL/GAL
assembler and programmed.--Chuck------------------------------Message: 18Date:
Tue, 11 Jun 2019 05:17:50 -0400From: "Paul Birkel" <pbir...@gmail.com>To:
"'Chuck Guzis'" <ccl...@sydex.com>, "'General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:
<0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="UTF-8">-----Original Message----->From: cctalk
[mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via
cctalk>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM>To: Tony Duell via cctalk>Subject:
Re: HP9816 PAL16L8>>On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>> You can
detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>> >> For each combination of inputs :>>
Read the outputs>> Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again
or vice versa)>> Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they
have>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>> Check
the next input>> Check the next combination of inputs>>For purely
combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at>vcfed.org; I did
the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and>documented the
process.http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7)
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6)
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5)
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4)
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3)
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2)
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1) A nice
read. When does the article/book get self-published
:->?-----paul------------------------------Message: 19Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019
13:05:45 +0200From: Liam Proven <lpro...@gmail.com>To: "Discussion: On-Topic
and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or
40 Tick?Message-ID:
<camtenchjv+qk2hgy0gmuqoht16mzcw1bz6eyics4vj6bnrn...@mail.gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8"Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth
Morabito...?This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to
be441 ICs.
Impressive!?https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lpro...@cix.co.uk -
Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven@gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven -
Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+
WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829
053------------------------------Message: 20Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:10:26
+0200From: Liam Proven <lpro...@gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external
dialers.Message-ID:
<camtencfc2qar2+3c20cxnioy3-amxvbjknkprxckhs9vdfr...@mail.gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 22:57, Tomasz Rola via
cctalk<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:>> I share the sentiment and I guess I
could give similar description> (yours was very interesting, BTW).Thank you!>
If I had a privilege to own> Psion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was
already bowing out> of the PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed
Familiar> Linux on it and hoped there would be a future when PDAs can be>
bought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But while researching, I could on one> ocassion
tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx keyboard in a shop. I> think about this
keyboard to this very day.Nothing ever was better and fitted in your pocket.
*Nothing*.> About displays: my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were
also> used in other handheld PDAs of the time). It was called transflective>
LCD. They are easily recognized, because the light can be permamently> turned
off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight, i.e. a layer of> leds/incandescents which
shine through from the back of the display> towards the user. Transflectives
have special reflective layer in the> back, and a diode on a side. The external
light reflects and shines> back through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish
description, but I> hope I have got it right.>> Anyway, such display looked
best in full sun. The one in 3630 could> display 4096 colors (with spectrum
slightly bent towards pinky). Later> iPAQ models could do 65k colors (again
slightly bent, but this time> much less visible). I used mine PDA as a proto
ebook reader, lots of> html and pdb material read outdoors. The same kind of
LCD was to be> found in many phones.Fascinating. I did not know transreflective
LCDs were in PDAs. I onlyknew of them from the One Laptop Per Child project.
There was anattempt to "productize" them as Pixel Qi but it
died:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi> For whatever reason, morons
decided the shiny LCD should be next best> thing. And transflective got lost.
Just like this. Nada. Appears like> the very meaning of "mobile" changed during
last twenty years - first> it meant "outdoors" and now it means "from one couch
to another,> indoors".A tragic loss for all of us. Triple-layer transmissive
LCDs are aterrible bodge of a technology, and it is only because they are so
badthat things like OLED look like good alternatives.But since it is all that
anyone knows now, we think they are great.> Twenty years ago people using such
tech were easily falling into> "elite users" of some kind. Either because of
earnings or because they> had nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them
- and the> machines reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again,
machines> reflect this.Yes, true.> I am rather baffled whenever I read Psion
had milion users and yet> this was not enough for them. Plenty of people would
consider> themselves lucky if their books, cars or games were bought by this>
many. The attitude of Psion managers is totally disgusting for me,> unless I
had not taken something into account.Agreed.This is something Planet Computers
understands and I hope that it continues to.> Perhaps niche technical products
should be sold by those who> understand niche markets. I imagine that if I came
to manager of niche> recording label and suggested he should get rid of
musicians and start> recording some generic crap outsourced from other side of
the world to> "reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the window with his boot
in my> arse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar proposition to>
manager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and some> of his
shares. But maybe I am romantic.:-D Excellent comparison!-- Liam Proven -
Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google
Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven@gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven -
Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+
WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829
053------------------------------Message: 21Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 07:33:23
-0400From: "Paul Birkel" <pbir...@gmail.com>To: "'Liam Proven'"
<lpro...@gmail.com>, "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk@classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40
Tick?Message-ID: <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="UTF-8">-----Original Message----->From: cctalk
[mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven via
cctalk>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 7:06 AM>To: Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts>Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?>>Found on
Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...>>?>This is what makes a
PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be>441 ICs.
Impressive!>?>>https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html>>--
>Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenI wonder what the unlisted
20 ICs are for, and what they are?List totals 221; claim is 441
...-----paul------------------------------Message: 22Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019
09:49:54 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb....@gmail.com>To:
cctalk@classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:
<6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8a...@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-11 6:17 a.m., Paul Birkel via cctalk
wrote:>> -----Original Message----->> From: cctalk
[mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM>> To: Tony Duell via cctalk>> Subject:
Re: HP9816 PAL16L8>>>> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>>>>
You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>>>>>> For each combination of
inputs :>>> Read the outputs>>> Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1
and back again or vice versa)>>> Compare the outputs to what they were
before -- if they have>>> changed then there's a sequential function on that
input>>> Check the next input>>> Check the next combination of
inputs>> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over
at>> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and>>
documented the process.>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7)>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6)>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5)>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4)>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3)>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2)>
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1)>> A nice
read. When does the article/book get self-published :->?>> -----> paul>The
process documented above is essentially the process I started last night, but
in my case I used a GPIO in my HP 9000-332 to cycle through the inputs and
record the output.? It is very handy to have general purpose parallel I/O for
purposes like this.? In this case the number of possible states is reduced as
two of the inputs are permanently tied high.? I am well on my well to
developing logic equations to feed into palasm to generate a new JEDEC file
which I can then burn into a GAL and test to see if it is
correct.Paul.------------------------------Message: 23Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019
09:54:48 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb....@gmail.com>To:
cctalk@classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:
<404e283e-1b9f-dff5-8d1a-d00fe6a88...@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-11 1:19 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>> You can detect
sequential logic in the PAL by :>>>> For each combination of inputs :>>
Read the outputs>> Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or
vice versa)>> Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they
have>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>> Check
the next input>> Check the next combination of inputs> For purely
combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at> vcfed.org; I did
the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and> documented the process.>>
FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallel> port of
a PC. Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensive> MCU--the
programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount of> flexibility to the
process.>> Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run
all> combinations of the inputs, observing the outputs. If the tristate>
feature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the difference> between a
tristated pin and a genuine input.>> There are a number of tools to perform
reduction on the results, such as> Logic Friday. After that, you're left with
a bunch of logic equations> that can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and
programmed.>> --ChuckOld computer work too, I used a GPIO in a HP 9000-332.?
Years ago I also created general purpose I/O ports for a PC using 6821 chips
since they are way more flexible that the Intel? 8255, but the HP 9000 coupled
with RMB makes for a great environment to bang out quick programs to do things
like this.Paul.End of cctech Digest, Vol 57, Issue
11**************************************
