Hi Anthony and Kaloyan ,
I really have to support you on this one. One major problem is that we exepct all people in the list to be developers in the sense of source code than contributors via application module testing and verification. The source is just released to the domain and we haven't segmented the clientele into users, source code developers, database migration/testing/design, interface and feature design/test/ and many other areas. So each one of us has their own expectations from within the project which cannot be satisfied unless we have segmented this project. There are observers, developers, contributors and users and if you follow the lists, then u will realise that the various models of Care2x running across the globe vary significantly in terms of customisation and scope yet little of it is fed back into the project. Thence the failure to build a working model of accepted features and modules by the project management team. For instance, Mauri Niemi in Africa has done a tremendous lot in Africa (Billing and other modules) where the scope of application of the project has been completely tailored to the continent's needs, and so is the case here in Botswana where HIV/AIDS prevalence is higher and there are programs such as PMTCT (Prevention of Mother to Child Transmission), public ARV therapy etc.
If all these customisations are fed back into the project, then you would realise just how much progress there is out there. The latin American team also seems to be very busy but the results are far from reaching the rest of the community. My take on this is we need to drive the project forward and have a revival of feedback spirit, thereby naturing the contribution for everyone to enjoy the fruits of the hardwork already labored into the project.
Your initiation of this heated discussion has brought all minds back to the core of the matter; We need to wake up and labor on!
I would appreciate it if Anthony could be put in the project management team even if temporarily because I can sense that he has a lot of shake he needs to input to the project to help drive it forward again (from a users' perspective not as a source code contributor) perhaps, a lot of problems currently hitting the project hard could abate. He could try to rebuild the interaction and communication of the community. The various functionalities and features he needs to drive could be driven onto the table for implementation, and other problems resolved. That's my take anyway! No hard feelings towards anyone, just my fear of seeing several forks coming up and dismembering this project from the middle. Commercialising Care2x is not my route, as someone rightly said, SugarCRM community is dying because of commercialisation.
Regards
Moses
+267 71242745
Gaborone, Botswana
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I really have to support you on this one. One major problem is that we exepct all people in the list to be developers in the sense of source code than contributors via application module testing and verification. The source is just released to the domain and we haven't segmented the clientele into users, source code developers, database migration/testing/design, interface and feature design/test/ and many other areas. So each one of us has their own expectations from within the project which cannot be satisfied unless we have segmented this project. There are observers, developers, contributors and users and if you follow the lists, then u will realise that the various models of Care2x running across the globe vary significantly in terms of customisation and scope yet little of it is fed back into the project. Thence the failure to build a working model of accepted features and modules by the project management team. For instance, Mauri Niemi in Africa has done a tremendous lot in Africa (Billing and other modules) where the scope of application of the project has been completely tailored to the continent's needs, and so is the case here in Botswana where HIV/AIDS prevalence is higher and there are programs such as PMTCT (Prevention of Mother to Child Transmission), public ARV therapy etc.
If all these customisations are fed back into the project, then you would realise just how much progress there is out there. The latin American team also seems to be very busy but the results are far from reaching the rest of the community. My take on this is we need to drive the project forward and have a revival of feedback spirit, thereby naturing the contribution for everyone to enjoy the fruits of the hardwork already labored into the project.
Your initiation of this heated discussion has brought all minds back to the core of the matter; We need to wake up and labor on!
I would appreciate it if Anthony could be put in the project management team even if temporarily because I can sense that he has a lot of shake he needs to input to the project to help drive it forward again (from a users' perspective not as a source code contributor) perhaps, a lot of problems currently hitting the project hard could abate. He could try to rebuild the interaction and communication of the community. The various functionalities and features he needs to drive could be driven onto the table for implementation, and other problems resolved. That's my take anyway! No hard feelings towards anyone, just my fear of seeing several forks coming up and dismembering this project from the middle. Commercialising Care2x is not my route, as someone rightly said, SugarCRM community is dying because of commercialisation.
Regards
Moses
+267 71242745
Gaborone, Botswana
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
----- Original Message ----
From: Anthony Papillion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:23:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Care2002-developers] Care2X Issues and Fork
From: Anthony Papillion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 8:23:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Care2002-developers] Care2X Issues and Fork
Hi Kaloyan:
Thank you for your very positive response to my emails
and for understanding that I'm not trying to tear down
the Care2X project in any way but rather build it up
and make it better.
To be honest, I don't see a LOT of problems with the
Care2X project beyond the "human element". Thought I
haven't reviewed *all* of the code, I don't believe
anything I saw isn't something that is either fixable
or unimportant. So the code isn't really a problem
IMHO.
The main problem I see is the lack of information and
interaction provided by the project. New developers
and the public in general have a lot of problems
getting any kind of response from the developers and
that prevents a lot of new development or adoption
from happening.
I suppose the main thing I'd like to see is the
developers becoming more responsive to the list and to
understanding that Care2X doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Users are important, new developers are important,
extension and increased adoption and deployment are
important. We *have* to listen better to the community
if the project is to not only survive, but thrive.
Even though the past few days discussions have been
intense and difficult, I believe it has also been
productive. I, and the rest of the community, are
getting a better glimpse into the "behind the scenes"
issues with the project, increased developer
interaction, and real, solid forward motion.
I look forward to seeing where this project goes and I
believe we have all taken a new step forward. Not
because of me or my posts in any way, but rather
because of the new and open discussions.
Sincerely,
Anthony
P. (918) 926-0139
--- Kaloyan Raev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Anthony,
>
> I agree with you that you did nothing wrong
> regarding open source habits
> and especially care2x community. May be not all
> people are comfortable
> with the way you express yourself, but this is
> normal for such kind of
> discussions.
>
> I want to personally thank you for bringing the
> problem in discussion.
> I would like to turn the energy that has condensed
> in this mailing list
> into something more constructive.
>
> The latest posts outlined two general problems:
>
> 1. Organisation of the care2x community:
> responsibilities, meaningful
> and trustful roadmap, the way of communication, etc.
> 2. Future evolution of the care2x software in
> terms of modularity,
> usability, technologies, etc.
>
> There are some posts that address these problems and
> partially give idea
> how to solve them.
>
> I want to invite you, Anthony, to share with us your
> ideas about this.
> The fact that you were thinking about hypothetical
> forking means you
> have something in mind. Please, state exactly the
> problems in the
> community and give your ideas _how_ we can solve
> them.
>
> Latest discussion brought lots of attention in the
> mailing list. I am
> sure that there are many eyes turned back watching
> it again. I believe
> we can do it all together and find the right
> direction to go forward.
>
> Greetings
> Kaloyan
>
> On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 10:39 -0700, Anthony Papillion
> wrote:
> > Moses:
> >
> > Since the Care2X team has responded and they seem
> to
> > be waking up a little bit, I was basically going
> to
> > let this issue settle and see where it all went.
> Until
> > I read your post.
> >
> > What I am suggesting is not piracy and it's
> certainly
> > not driven by individualistic goals to "get all
> the
> > credit". My goal is solely to bring Care2X to a
> place
> > where it can be accepted within the North American
> > marketplace and bring it to a more professional
> place
> > generally. I fail to see how there is anything
> wrong
> > with that at all. In fact, that is one of the
> built in
> > insurance policies of an OSS project: if the
> original
> > developers aren't pleasing the market there is
> always
> > the opportunity for other developer to step in and
> > fill the gap.
> >
> > As to your piracy claim, I have to say it's just
> > silly. One cannot "pirate" OSS code unless they do
> > something that violates the GPL. I never suggested
> > doing anything that violates the GPL so I'm not
> > pirating the software. I'm simply exercising my
> RIGHTS
> > UNDER THE GPL. If you think what I am doing is
> piracy,
> > then I suggest that you go back and read the GPL
> in
> > its entirety and familiarize yourself with the
> rights
> > it bestows on software users. Under the GPL there
> is
> > absolutely nothing illegal (and piracy is a
> strictly
> > legal word) about forking. It's a right.
> >
> > Instead of reacting from an emotional place and
> > throwing words like piracy around, perhaps you
> should
> > look at the project objectively. Obviously, there
> > are/were some problems or else people would be
> > complaining about the SAME thing. If the
> developers
> > address these problems (and it really seems as
> though
> > they are) then there is no need or threat of a
> fork.
> > If they choose not to, then it is anyones absolute
> > right to fork and create something that works for
> > them. As I said in my two posts, which I do
> encourage
> > you to go back to the archives and read, I don't
> WANT
> > to fork. I would rather Care2X continue as a
> unified
> > team under the skillful guidance of its current
> > managers. But, should the problems with the
> project
> > not be resolved, I think a fork is indeed called
> for.
> > And, as I said earlier in this email, it looks
> like
> > the devlopers are doing some change so that might
> not
> > even be an issue anymore.
> >
> > Lastly, my suggestion is that you stop looking at
> the
> > project from the subjective viewpoint of a
> developer
> > and look at it from the viewpoint of the people
> it's
> > supposed to serve. Those are the people that
> should
> > drive development and those are the people you
> have to
> > please. If they aren't satisfied then all you have
> is
> > a "ooh cool shiney new product" will never break
> new
> > ground.
> >
> > Anthony Papillion
> > P: (918) 926-0139
> >
> > --- Moses Moloi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Team,
> > > I agree completely with Elpidio (and I guess
> with
> > > the rest of the community). What Papillion is
> > > suggesting is simply what I would call "Piracy"
> even
> > > though it may seem to be a very legitimate move
> to
> > > fork. I have been studying the Care2x software
> for
> > > the past two years and I'm taking my time
> > > contributing where I can and not waiting for
> > > sometime to develop some "nice module" or
> > > functionality and then critique it! If things
> are
> > > not moving fast enough, add the momentum to help
> > > them move, not simply thinking forking will be
> the
> > > solution here.
> > > I have witnessed individualistic people who
> pounce
> > > on every opportunity fail when they fork
> projects
> > > whose roots they can't trace so that they could
> get
> > > all the credit. I personally would not follow
> > > over-hurried projects in search on "fast-forward
> > > progress" only to get disappointed later. Team
> work
> > > within opensource is all about patience,
> > > contribution and communication and positive
> talk,
> > > not waiting behind some monitor for someone to
> > > magically make things move at YOUR desired
> pace!!
> > >
> > > Help us address the problems identified, talk to
> > > Kolayan and the rest of the community. Open
> source
> > > people like challenges and my guess is that they
> > > will gratefully contribute to the address of
> these
> > > problems
> > >
> > > Thanks for the response Elpidio,
> > >
> > > Moses Moloi
> > > Gaborone, Botswana
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
Care2002-developers mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/care2002-developers
Thank you for your very positive response to my emails
and for understanding that I'm not trying to tear down
the Care2X project in any way but rather build it up
and make it better.
To be honest, I don't see a LOT of problems with the
Care2X project beyond the "human element". Thought I
haven't reviewed *all* of the code, I don't believe
anything I saw isn't something that is either fixable
or unimportant. So the code isn't really a problem
IMHO.
The main problem I see is the lack of information and
interaction provided by the project. New developers
and the public in general have a lot of problems
getting any kind of response from the developers and
that prevents a lot of new development or adoption
from happening.
I suppose the main thing I'd like to see is the
developers becoming more responsive to the list and to
understanding that Care2X doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Users are important, new developers are important,
extension and increased adoption and deployment are
important. We *have* to listen better to the community
if the project is to not only survive, but thrive.
Even though the past few days discussions have been
intense and difficult, I believe it has also been
productive. I, and the rest of the community, are
getting a better glimpse into the "behind the scenes"
issues with the project, increased developer
interaction, and real, solid forward motion.
I look forward to seeing where this project goes and I
believe we have all taken a new step forward. Not
because of me or my posts in any way, but rather
because of the new and open discussions.
Sincerely,
Anthony
P. (918) 926-0139
--- Kaloyan Raev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Anthony,
>
> I agree with you that you did nothing wrong
> regarding open source habits
> and especially care2x community. May be not all
> people are comfortable
> with the way you express yourself, but this is
> normal for such kind of
> discussions.
>
> I want to personally thank you for bringing the
> problem in discussion.
> I would like to turn the energy that has condensed
> in this mailing list
> into something more constructive.
>
> The latest posts outlined two general problems:
>
> 1. Organisation of the care2x community:
> responsibilities, meaningful
> and trustful roadmap, the way of communication, etc.
> 2. Future evolution of the care2x software in
> terms of modularity,
> usability, technologies, etc.
>
> There are some posts that address these problems and
> partially give idea
> how to solve them.
>
> I want to invite you, Anthony, to share with us your
> ideas about this.
> The fact that you were thinking about hypothetical
> forking means you
> have something in mind. Please, state exactly the
> problems in the
> community and give your ideas _how_ we can solve
> them.
>
> Latest discussion brought lots of attention in the
> mailing list. I am
> sure that there are many eyes turned back watching
> it again. I believe
> we can do it all together and find the right
> direction to go forward.
>
> Greetings
> Kaloyan
>
> On Mon, 2006-06-19 at 10:39 -0700, Anthony Papillion
> wrote:
> > Moses:
> >
> > Since the Care2X team has responded and they seem
> to
> > be waking up a little bit, I was basically going
> to
> > let this issue settle and see where it all went.
> Until
> > I read your post.
> >
> > What I am suggesting is not piracy and it's
> certainly
> > not driven by individualistic goals to "get all
> the
> > credit". My goal is solely to bring Care2X to a
> place
> > where it can be accepted within the North American
> > marketplace and bring it to a more professional
> place
> > generally. I fail to see how there is anything
> wrong
> > with that at all. In fact, that is one of the
> built in
> > insurance policies of an OSS project: if the
> original
> > developers aren't pleasing the market there is
> always
> > the opportunity for other developer to step in and
> > fill the gap.
> >
> > As to your piracy claim, I have to say it's just
> > silly. One cannot "pirate" OSS code unless they do
> > something that violates the GPL. I never suggested
> > doing anything that violates the GPL so I'm not
> > pirating the software. I'm simply exercising my
> RIGHTS
> > UNDER THE GPL. If you think what I am doing is
> piracy,
> > then I suggest that you go back and read the GPL
> in
> > its entirety and familiarize yourself with the
> rights
> > it bestows on software users. Under the GPL there
> is
> > absolutely nothing illegal (and piracy is a
> strictly
> > legal word) about forking. It's a right.
> >
> > Instead of reacting from an emotional place and
> > throwing words like piracy around, perhaps you
> should
> > look at the project objectively. Obviously, there
> > are/were some problems or else people would be
> > complaining about the SAME thing. If the
> developers
> > address these problems (and it really seems as
> though
> > they are) then there is no need or threat of a
> fork.
> > If they choose not to, then it is anyones absolute
> > right to fork and create something that works for
> > them. As I said in my two posts, which I do
> encourage
> > you to go back to the archives and read, I don't
> WANT
> > to fork. I would rather Care2X continue as a
> unified
> > team under the skillful guidance of its current
> > managers. But, should the problems with the
> project
> > not be resolved, I think a fork is indeed called
> for.
> > And, as I said earlier in this email, it looks
> like
> > the devlopers are doing some change so that might
> not
> > even be an issue anymore.
> >
> > Lastly, my suggestion is that you stop looking at
> the
> > project from the subjective viewpoint of a
> developer
> > and look at it from the viewpoint of the people
> it's
> > supposed to serve. Those are the people that
> should
> > drive development and those are the people you
> have to
> > please. If they aren't satisfied then all you have
> is
> > a "ooh cool shiney new product" will never break
> new
> > ground.
> >
> > Anthony Papillion
> > P: (918) 926-0139
> >
> > --- Moses Moloi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Team,
> > > I agree completely with Elpidio (and I guess
> with
> > > the rest of the community). What Papillion is
> > > suggesting is simply what I would call "Piracy"
> even
> > > though it may seem to be a very legitimate move
> to
> > > fork. I have been studying the Care2x software
> for
> > > the past two years and I'm taking my time
> > > contributing where I can and not waiting for
> > > sometime to develop some "nice module" or
> > > functionality and then critique it! If things
> are
> > > not moving fast enough, add the momentum to help
> > > them move, not simply thinking forking will be
> the
> > > solution here.
> > > I have witnessed individualistic people who
> pounce
> > > on every opportunity fail when they fork
> projects
> > > whose roots they can't trace so that they could
> get
> > > all the credit. I personally would not follow
> > > over-hurried projects in search on "fast-forward
> > > progress" only to get disappointed later. Team
> work
> > > within opensource is all about patience,
> > > contribution and communication and positive
> talk,
> > > not waiting behind some monitor for someone to
> > > magically make things move at YOUR desired
> pace!!
> > >
> > > Help us address the problems identified, talk to
> > > Kolayan and the rest of the community. Open
> source
> > > people like challenges and my guess is that they
> > > will gratefully contribute to the address of
> these
> > > problems
> > >
> > > Thanks for the response Elpidio,
> > >
> > > Moses Moloi
> > > Gaborone, Botswana
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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