Hi all,
I've tested every key in both modes and everything seems to be working more
or less as expected. No crashes (except for the issue with the low A key
that Torsten already pointed out). One thing I've noticed is that some key
names in textual mode might be misplaced; if you look at the following
example, the name of the key maybe should be more or less in the same
position than the key in the graphical version, according to what I've seen
in scores and charts, but I'll dig more into this and come back with more
details later.
\version "2.20.0"
\score {
{
r1 ^\markup %\override #'(graphical . #f)
{
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . ())
(lh . ())
(rh . (e)))
}
}
r1 ^\markup \override #'(graphical . #f)
{
\center-column {
\woodwind-diagram
#'saxophone
#'((cc . ())
(lh . ())
(rh . (e)))
}
}
}
}
I've sent a chart with all the diagrams in both modes to two saxophone
players, along with some questions and I'm waiting for their answers. I've
also started to do some research and already found some interesting things:
one is that there is a high-G key in soprano saxophones only (I don't know
yet if it is present on all sopranos or just some of them) that is missing
in the LilyPond diagrams. The other is about key naming, which I outline
below:
In Marcus Weiss' book "The techniques of saxophone playing" (Bärenreiter
2010) some of the right hand keys (the "trill keys") are named "Tc", "Ta"
and "Tf" and some of the left and right hand keys (the "high keys") are
named "c1", "c2", "c3", "c4", "c5" and "c6" (soprano only), instead of
having note names. The B flat key is named "p". The front-f key is referred
to as "high F alternate key" and represented with an x cross. The octave
key is represented with an "8". The central column keys are represented
with numbers 1 to 6 and the rest of the keys have note names. This is the
same naming convention that is found in Daniel Kientzy's "Les sons
multiples aux saxophones" (Salabert editions 1982) and Jean-Marie Londeix's
"Hello! Mr. Sax" (Editions Musicales Alphonse Leduc 1989).
Here are the key names in Lilypond and their equivalents in Weiss:
cc
one: 1 = B key
two: 2 = A key
three: 3 = G key
four: 4 = F key
five: 5 = E key
six: 6 = D key
lh
low-a: A = low A key (baritone only)
T: 8 = octave key
ees: c2 = high Eb key
d: c1 = high D key
f: c4 = high F key
front-f: x = high F alternate key
bes: p = Bb key
gis: G# = G# key
cis: C# = C# key
b: B = low B key
low-bes: Bb = low Bb key
rh
e: c3 = high E key
c: Tc = C trill key
bes: Ta = A trill key
high-fis: c5 = high F# key
(missing): c6 = high G key (soprano only)
fis: Tf = F# trill key
ees: Eb = Eb key
low-c: C or 7 = C key
You can find Marcus Weiss' diagram and key descriptions here
https://www.stretta-music.com/media/images/951/489951_detail-04.jpg
and here
https://www.stretta-music.com/media/images/951/489951_detail-05.jpg
Some note on the books I've looked into: Londeix's one is an average book
on saxophone technichques. It is fairly known, I think, among saxophonists.
Kientzy's book was the first major work on saxophone multiphonics. It is
well known among saxophonists specialized in classical contemporary
music and it is mentioned in almost every academic work on multiphonics.
Weiss' book (much more recent) presents an in-depth study on contemporary
techniques, including microtone scales, and a large catalog of
multiphonics. The player who recommended it to me regarded it as "the
ultimate resource on contemporary techniques for saxophone".
Weiss' multiphonics catalogue can be found online here
https://www.baerenreiter.com/materialien/weiss_netti/saxophon/multiphonics.html
It is a great place to find diagrams of non-trivial fingerings (there are
more than 100 for soprano to baritone saxophones).
Lastly, in addition to Torsten words on the saxophone situation, I'd like
to mention that fingering diagrams are very important in classical
contemporary music scores, because they are needed in the notation of many
of the so called "extended techniques", most notably multiphonics.
Multiphonics are complex sounds with more than one pitch (some of them
sound like chords) that can be produced using special fingerings. In a
score, whenever you see something that looks like a chord there's a
fingering diagram above. This apply not only to saxophones but woodwind
instruments in general.
That's all for today...
Cheers
Antonio
On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 07:31, <torsten.haemme...@web.de> wrote:
> … and, of course, I forgot to attach the low A photograph…
>
> Well, here it is.
>
>
>
> *Von:* torsten.haemme...@web.de <torsten.haemme...@web.de>
> *Gesendet:* Samstag, 23. Mai 2020 12:29
> *An:* 'Valentin Villenave' <valen...@villenave.net>; 'Antonio Ortega
> Brook' <antonioortegabr...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* 'Carl Sorensen' <c_soren...@byu.edu>; 'bug-lilypond@gnu.org' <
> bug-lilypond@gnu.org>
> *Betreff:* AW: Keys won't display as text in saxophone diagram
>
>
>
> Hi Valentin,
>
>
>
> I didn't have time to follow the SourceForge -> GitLab transition and so
> I'm currently trying to keep track.
>
> I didn't even manage to post to nabble using nabble anymore... (???)
>
>
>
> If you don't mind, I'll try to insert an one-line change into your merge
> request - it' s about the second textual diagram crash I know about:
>
> When switching from graphical to textual representation, tin-whistle will
> also abort.
>
> I know that this is rather pointless, as tin whistles don't have any
> special keys/holes, not even a thumb hole, but, nevertheless, LilyPond
> should not crash.
>
>
>
> The tin whistle crash can be easily produced by just switching off
> graphical representation:
>
> \markup \override #'(graphical . #f) {
>
> \woodwind-diagram
>
> #'tin-whistle % saxophone
>
> #'((cc . ()) (lh . ()) (rh . ()))
>
> }
>
>
>
> The cause is in
>
> [...]/scm/display-woodwind-diagrams.scm
>
>
>
> (define (generate-tin-whistle-family-entry tin-whistle-name)
>
> [...]
>
> (text-commands
>
> [...]
>
> ((stencils
>
> . ,(make-central-column-hole-addresses
>
> CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-H-LIST))
>
>
>
> where it should really be CENTRAL-COLUMN-HOLE-LIST (without the additional
> "-H" in it)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, I think it a good idea to work on some historic shortcomings of
> the woodwind diagrams.
>
>
>
> I don't play woodwind instruments myself, either, but some of my closest
> friends play clarinet and saxophone, representing a rather full range of
> these instruments. And, thanks to Corona (long story), I happen to
> currently have all of these instruments sitting in my living room. 😊
>
>
>
> As the original post was about saxophones, I'll stick to the saxophone
> family (for the time being).
>
>
>
> Instruments at hand:
>
> - Baritone Saxophone
>
> - Tenor Saxophones (several)
>
> - Alto Saxophones (several)
>
> - Soprano Saxophone
>
> No bass saxophone or below, though (sorry), and the sopranino is several
> hundred kilometers away, no sopranissimo. No C melody.
>
>
>
> As not all of us (and especially people programming all these woodwind
> diagrams) play or technically know all of these instruments, I'll just
> quickly outline the special sax situation, if you don't mind.
>
> Saxophone fingering
>
>
>
> Saxophones are transposing instruments and the layout of keys and thus the
> fingering is the independent of the type of saxophone:.
>
> Same written note means same fingering.
>
>
>
> That's why the LilyPond woodwind diagrams for soprano, alto and tenor
> saxophones just refer to one and the same plain 'saxophone definition.
>
> There's only one exception for the baritone saxophone: Many baritone
> saxophones have an additional key to extend the range down to low A
> (usually, Bb is the lowest written note on a saxophone).
>
>
>
> Yesterday, I just took a side-by-side photograph of a baritone saxophone
> (Selmer Super Action 80, with low A key) and an alto (Selmer Mark VI,
> without low A key, of course) and marked the low A key (green) or the place
> where it would be (red). The black thumb rest can be used for orientation:
> The low A key is directly opposite the octave key, both surrounding the
> left hand thumb rest.
>
>
>
> One reason why I attached the photo is that probably not too many people
> may ever have seen a low A key.
>
> But the other, more important reason is that I'd prefer to have some
> suitable kind of graphical representation of this key (instead of just
> printing "lowA" or a circled "lowA" for low-aT.
>
>
>
> Perhaps somebody has a nice design idea. Unfortunately, most saxophone
> fingering charts (even for baritone sax) omit the low A extension.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Torsten
>
--
Antonio Ortega Brook
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