> -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Doug > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:18 PM > To: Killer Bs Discussion > Subject: Re: VP not part of Executive Branch? > > Dan wrote: > > > It may not be a good interpretation of the original intent of the > > founders, but I think it is consistent with decisions of the Supreme > > Court over the > > last 140 or so years. I don't think either one of us is a strict > > constructionist overall. Now, I'll agree that this interpretation of the > > Constitution is a bit sketchy...I'd like to see a different balance > > between Congress and the President on war powers, but I was not arguing > > whether Bush having this power is a good thing. Rather, my original > > point is that it is based on decisions of the Supreme Court that were > > based on the general > > acceptance of Lincoln's actions as Constitutional. > > When has an American Citizen been held as an enemy combatant and > completely isolated?
I'm not sure that exact thing has happened, but I know that in WWII Americans citizens, captured in the US have been declared enemy combatants and executed. The Supreme Court decided at the time that constitutional protections did not apply to them. This is also the main precedent for Bush's actions. > When has torture been condoned? It hasn't been formally condoned even now...the President has stated that we do not torture and that torture is wrong even now. Having said that, I agree it's been given a wink and a nod....with the executive branchy (probably including GWB but who knows what he understands) while officially not condoned. If that's considered condoning it....which is a reasonable position and one I hold myself, then the last time that has happened is when Clinton authorized extraordinary rendition. Before that, I know it was acceptable until the late '70s, at the very least....not technically condoned, but you know...a necessary evil that we looked the other way at. >When has the kind of massive, indiscriminant wiretapping program the >administration has carried out ever happened? Far greater wiretapping, and for less cause, had taken place under Hoover. There is no indication that political figures, such as MLK, have been routinely wiretapped. Indeed, the evidence so far is that massive operations were for pattern recognition, not massive wiretapping of ordinary US to US phone calls. >What the administration has done is _beyond_ what has happened in the past >and the situation is far less dire than it was when similar excesses >occurred. Huh? We are talking about _one_ American detained....and his fate is now before a jury. In WWII, two were executed without recourse to a jury and hundreds of thousands were confined without even an allegation of guild. As far as less dire...it depends on how you look at it. Things were most dire in the 60s-80s, when nuclear war was always one really bad decision away. But, that had little direct bearing on declaring citizens enemy combatants because the nature of the risk was not sabotage. In WWII, the attack on Pearl Harbor was by a uniformed military command. Thus, imprisoning hundreds of thousands of Americans had little to do with the threat of Japanese warplanes. The sabotage risk from the German-Americans who were executed was far less than what actually happened on 9-11. If you only extrapolated a small bit (planes hitting the WTC when the buildings were full) and hitting the capitol instead of the Pentagon....and/or the hijackers not letting the citizens on United flight 93 call home and find out about the WTC attack....we could have had a much worse tragedy than we had. From reading the history of the Pentagon, I found out that it was a double reinforced building....almost by accident. The Capitol would have sustained far worse damage. Given that, and given the findings of the commission on terrorism that issued reports on high risks well before 9-11, it is very hard to see when the US was at such a severe risk for attack from within the US since the Civil War. Indeed, the damage to the 48 continental states from any source has never been so great since the Civil War. I don't see how the danger to American soldiers in WWI WWII, Korea, 'Nam, etc. is relevant to suspending civil rights within the US. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
